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There is a theory that Babylon the great in the book of Revelation refers to
the city of Jerusalem.
In the following discussion
with a friend both the nature of Babylon the great is discussed and its
identification.
My friend represents the
position that Babylon is Jerusalem
and I represent the position that Babylon the great is not and cannot be the
city of Jerusalem.
GA: So I understand two phases to this global, endtime Babylon system.
Religious Babylon is being built (probably now), and is destroyed by AC
(Rev. 17), along with the help of ’10 kings’.<
Rev. 17:16, the beast and the 10 destroy the Babylonian harlot; "eat her
flesh, burn her up with fire."
Verse 17, FOR (gar) God has put it in their hearts to execute HIS purpose,
by having a common purpose.
Verse 18, and the woman is "the great city, which reigns over the kings of
the earth."
I agree that this is around the midpoint in order for the beast to start his
own system of worship.
GA:He does NOT present himself as the next upgrade to some ancient religion,
with a pedigree reaching back to Nimrod & Babel. That stuff is what he
kicked to the curb in Rev. 17, when the Harlot precursor system is
destroyed.<
Maybe. BUT all of it is still tied directly to Satan. So I see beast worship
as simply an extension of Nimrod's religion.
I see the beast as simply taking up the mantle of Satanic deception from
"Babylon" and perpetuating it in his own system. Maybe that is part of the
MYSTERY.
THIS could apply to any of the cities in the running. (except for
Jerusalem).
Is the Babylonian system still "alive" but morphed into the beast system -
right up until just before Armageddon? Rev. 16:17-21 seems to take place
right at the end??
It seems that the B. system is not destroyed completely until that time?
Some think this (Rev 17) applies ONLY to the Babylonian SYSTEM, but verse 18
seems to have the specific city in view as well. So does this "burning with
fire" include the city here at the midpoint of the week?
It would give everyone plenty of time to cry and mourn about its
destruction.
But that would not fit for Jerusalem.
That TIME factor seems not to fit for other city options also.
GA: Commercial Babylon is destroyed shortly thereafter (Rev. 18), by God’s
wrath during the Day of the Lord.<
This ruin of the woman seems to be SUDDEN and quick. Like as quick as it
takes for the beast to take his stand in the temple and demand worship. But
when EXACTLY does it occur?
Chapter 18
Verses 1-3, a new vision
It is a common understanding that this chapter describes a destruction that
is future from the midpoint of the week. But is it?
Or is it just a warning and reason for the destruction, that precedes the
destruction already mentioned in chapter 17?
Verse 2, maybe the "fallen fallen" is a prediction of what is to come.
Verses 2-3 then give the REASON for the destruction.
She became the dwelling place of demons. (historically)
For all the nations have drunk of her immorality.
And the merchants have become rich. (historically and contemporarily).
Verses 4-5, a new focus with the voice from heaven.
A warning to get out of this city or this system.
For two reasons.
1. so as not to participate in her sins.
2. so as not to share in her plagues.
Seems like SEVERAL plagues are in view and not simply the ONE final
judgment.
Verse 8, plagues = death (thanatos), mourning and famine.
These things take a bit of time.
Verses 6-7,
Pay her back.
For this reason in one day: actually one TIME PERIOD, rather than 24 hour
day. But it does speak of a very short period of time. Time enough for
mourning and famine.
Verse 8, she will be burned up with fire.
Is this any different than 17:16, "burn her up with fire"?
Verses 9-19 a change of focus as John SEES the response of the nations.
I guess in our modern society, this ruin can be televised quickly and the
reaction likewise expressed quickly.
But this seems to be a reaction that has no other significant distractions
at the moment, so it seems that this would not be in connection with the
final judgments of the bowls.
How do these reactions meld with the timing at Rev. 19:1-3?
Verses 20-24, another change of focus.
The angelic ANNOUNCEMENT of Babylon's destruction; seeing it as still
future.
V. 20, pronounced judgment.
V. 21-23, the future tense, "will not."
Chapter 19:1-4
The great multitude in heaven rejoicing because the judgment has been
accomplished.
How do these passages line up with Jerusalem being destroyed at some point
after the midpoint of the week?
Rev. 19:1-3, "great harlot . . . her smoke rises up forever and ever."
For that matter, how does it fit in our chronology no matter what city it
is?
So returning to Rev. 16:19,
GA:There’s nothing in vs. 19b that requires “the great city” (vs. 19a) to be
identified as anything different than “the great city” first introduced in
11:8. There’s no logical reason to, and there’s no exegetical reason to
substitute a different city.<
So then, if taken by itself (just for the moment), you ask to "please
notice."
But, you don't quote the verse accurately.
Why not include the THIRD kai?
A. AND (kai) The great city is split into 3 parts.
B. AND (kai) the cities of the nations fell.
C. AND (kai) Babylon the great was remembered.
So, exegetically, there IS a reason to see "the great city" and "Babylon the
great" as two different entities.
Jerusalem, the great city (where the Lord was crucified) is separate from
the OTHER nations - AND
Babylon the great city (who rules over the others) is likewise separate from
the other nations.
The verse simply sees three different entities.
THAT IS WHY I am challenged to see all the references that are CLEARLY
referring to Babylon (listed in a previous post) as separate from the great
city that is given a unique designation, "where our Lord was crucified."
Now on to Bab's destruction in a following post.
JERUSALEM and BABYLON
According to Rev. 16:19, there are THREE things being affected by the 7th
bowl.
A. The great city is split into 3 parts.
B. AND the cities of the nations fell.
C. AND Babylon the great received the wrath of God.
Based on this, as I see it, there is one truth that cannot be denied.
"The great city" is different from "Babylon the great."
The adjective "great" can be used for more than one city.
"The great city" is mentioned earlier at Rev. 11:8 and clearly refers to
Jerusalem, "where also their Lord was crucified."
It is also given a "mystical" or symbolic designation; "which mystically is
called Sodom and Egypt."
Now, granted, there is no way to answer the question as to why a vision does
not included something. But seriously, if Jerusalem was also to be seen
"symbolically" as Babylon, THIS is the place to indicate that.
It is given a specific qualification, WHICH IS.
And it seems almost glaring that this designation, "Sodom and Egypt"
distinguishes it from Babylon.
No where else is THIS "great city" referred to until as we saw at verse
16:19, it is mentioned ALONG WITH the other great city, "Babylon the great."
So, Babylon is also described as "the great city."
And the first time we see it (Rev. 14:8), it too is given a specific
qualification, SHE WHO.
So both are distinguished one from the other by specific qualifications.
However, Jerusalem is only mentioned ONE TIME alone, whereas, the great city
that is Babylon is mentioned many times with distinct qualifiers that have
NOTHING to do with the city of Jerusalem.
There CAN be two great cities.
Context ALLOWS for this and as I see it, DEMANDS that Jerusalem the great
city and Babylon the great city are two different cities.
We also need to distinguish between the Babylon SYSTEM of evil from a
literal CITY. Both are dealt with in the Revelation.
Babylon the great is referenced 18 times.
14:8, Babylon the great
16:19, Babylon the great
17:1, the great harlot, who sits on many waters.
17:3, a woman sitting on a scarlet beast
17:4, the woman was clothed in purple
17:5, Babylon the great, the mother of harlots
17:6, the woman drunk with the blood of the saints
17:7, the mystery of the woman
17:9, the woman sits on 7 heads.
17:16, the harlot: the beast will hate the harlot.
17:18, the woman is the great city WHO reigns over the kings
18:2, Babylon the great
18:10, the great city, Babylon, the strong city.
18:16, the great city, WHO WAS clothed
18:18, the great city
18:19, the great city
18:21, Babylon the great city.
19:2, the great harlot, WHO WAS corrupting the earth with her immorality.
It refers to the great influence of Babylonian evil as perpetuated
throughout history in the 6 major kingdoms upon which it (she) rode. These
are usually seen as the "five are fallen" and the "one is" at Rev. 17:10,
and are identified as Egypt, Assyria, Chaldea, Persia, Greece, and Rome.
From Rome Babylonian evil evolved into the Roman church where it has wielded
its perversion of Christianity to this very day.
Details about the progress of Babylonian evil throughout history. can be
found at: http://biblefragrances.com/studies/docsb.html#anchor857166
The 7th kingdom upon which the harlot of Babylonian evil rides "is not yet
come."
When it does arise, it will last only a short time.
It seems that this "coming" kingdom will be the group of 10 nations that
receive authority with the beast for one hour, which seems to correspond
with Rev. 17:10, "remain a little while." This means that its role as a
WORLD POWER will be short lived.
And since the harlot will ride upon this 7th kingdom, it will wield some
kind of influence and control over it, just as it has over the previous
kingdoms, as is described at Rev. 17:18, "which reigns over the kings of the
earth," and Rev. 18:23, "all the nations were deceived by your sorcery."
Because of the seemingly oppressive nature of the harlot's control
(religious, economic and political), the group of ten will hate her. And
along with the assistance of the beast will destroy her (the Babylonian
harlot system) shortly after the midpoint of the 70th week. This of course
is so the beast can take full control of the kingdom and the world.
The description of Babylon the great in the above passages and context, has
such a world-wide scope, that I am unable to equate it with Jerusalem.
Some have claimed that Jerusalem does in fact line up with these
descriptions. Those who make the claim need to show the WHEN and the HOW.
The claim to a still future realization of these characteristics does not
fit with the context and activity of the beast.
-----------------------------
The beast makes his "headquarters" in Jerusalem, probably at the midpoint of
the week. But if Jerusalem is Babylon, the woman harlot, why does the beast
destroy her around the same time - midpoint of the week? Of course, he does
not destroy Jerusalem.
-------------------------
Around the midpoint of the 70th week, the beast will destroy the system of
Babylonian evil, which is Babylon the harlot. It seems there is no
destruction of a city at this point.
The beast then picks up the baton of Babylonian evil, as it was of course,
originally the tool of Satan to distort, pervert and hinder the progress of
God's truth throughout history. He takes upon himself the mantle of divinity
and begins to fulfill Satan's agenda for the destruction of Jews and
Christians, and ultimately to supplant God Himself.
In Jerusalem's past and present, its influence (the CITY) is at the most,
limited to the Palestinian area - even when Islam held the city, it was not
even close to having a world-wide influence.
What is CERTAIN is that AS OF RIGHT NOW, there is NOTHING else in this
kosmos system that can own such an influence over "all the nations" other
than the Roman church.
REVELATION 14:8, "ALL THE NATIONS drink of the wine of the passion of her
immorality."
It is the Roman church as the current EMBODIMENT of Babylonian evil, that
has reached to all depths of the world, deceiving (Rev. 18:23, "all the
nations were deceived") and leading all the nations into the bed of
spiritual immorality (Rev. 17:2).
REVELATION 17:5, "mother of harlots and of the abominations of the earth."
Same issue of spiritual immorality as above.
REVELATION 17:6, The woman is "drunk" with the blood. This indicates FILLED
UP to saturation.
1. The blood of the saints: probably refers to pre-Christian believers,
through the influence of Babylonian evil that started with Nimrod. Seen most
heavily in the kingdoms of Assyria, Babylon and Greece, which killed massive
amounts of Jews, both believer and unbeliever, as well as Gentile believers.
2. The blood of the witnesses of Jesus: refers to believers after 30 AD, and
ROME killed far more Christians than did the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem. And
then as the Roman Empire evolved into the Roman church, massive amounts of
Christians were killed, just in the inquisition period alone.
REVELATION 18:24, "and in her was found the blood of prophets and the
saints, and of all who have been slain on the earth." Certainly an example
of hyperbole, but still, Jerusalem does not qualify for this.
Concerning the reference to persecuting the saints and prophets. It is true
that "Jerusalem" BECAME guilty of this as Jesus stated at Mat. 23:35. "so
that upon you may fall on you the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on
the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah . . .
truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation."
1. First of all, Jesus refers to "from Abel to Zechariah (2 Chron. 24:21),"
because that is the order of the books of the Old Testament as it was
compiled at that time; Genesis being the first book and Chronicles being the
last one.
2. It means that the progress of evil that murdered the righteous believers
down through history UP TO THAT TIME will find its CULMINATION in the
rejection and murder of Jesus the Messiah by the Jewish leadership.
3. The punishment of "filling this up" will fall upon the city and the
people; "upon this generation."
4. As Jesus said, "because you did not recognize the time of your
visitation." Luke 19:44.
5. This was totally fulfilled in 70 AD with the destruction of the city and
temple, and the dispersion of the people throughout the Roman empire.
Luke 21:22, "because these are the days of vengeance so that all things that
were written may be fulfilled."
6. Since that time, the people and the city have not; in fact have been
totally UNABLE to qualify as being filled with the blood of prophets and
saints.
7. But the various nations involved that embody Babylonian evil, have NOT as
of yet been recompensed for their involvement with Babylonian evil.
REVELATION 17:15, sitting on many waters: described as referring to "peoples
and multitudes and nations and languages.
Again, Jerusalem simply never had such an extensive influence on the rest of
the world.
REVELATION 17:18, "the great city that reigns over the kings of the earth."
This cannot describe Jerusalem.
It is Rome - the Roman church - that wields so much religious, economic and
political influence on the nations.
REVELATION 18:2-3, "all the nations . . . and the kings of the earth" have
been influenced by her false doctrines; spiritual immorality.
What has almost without exception, infiltrated every nation but the
influence and control of the Roman church?
"And the merchants of the earth have become rich by the influence of her
luxury."
Jerusalem has never had such an influence.
But the Roman church, leeching off the people to build huge luxurious
structures and "feed" the church hiearchy has made the wealthy wealthier.
REVELATION 18:8, "pestilence (thanatos), mourning and famine . . and she
will be burned up with fire."
This simply does NOT happen to Jerusalem.
Verse 9, "when they see the smoke of her burning."
Apparently this very physical destruction of the CITY will be visible to all
her paramours.
It is the 10 nations (Rev. 17:19) that assist in the "burning her up with
fire."
REVELATION 18:10, "in one hour her judgment has come."
Jerusalem is never judged to such an extent as described in verses 8-10.
This judgment happens around the time of the midpoint of the week. It leaves
LOTS of time for the kings and merchants to weep and mourn.
Nothing "destructive" happens to Jerusalem until it is split into 3 parts
when Jesus stands on the Mt. of Olives, but even then, it is not destroyed.
There are still many people within the city who become believers and fight
the invading armies until Jesus actually shows up to end that "battle of
Jerusalem" before He goes to Megiddo for the final battle. Zechariah 12 and
14.
REVELATION 18:12-17, "such great wealth has been laid waste."
That entire desription simply does not fit Jerusalem.
The resources, the clothing - all, almost to perfection, describes the Roman
church.
REVELATION 18:21, "Thus will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with
violence, and will not be found any longer."
There is no statement in Revelation that indicates such a destruction on
JERUSALEM, "AND WILL NOT BE FOUND ANY LONGER."
Yes, Jerusalem will suffer some serious damage throughout the trumpet and
bowl judgments.
But even at Rev. 11:13 it is only "a tenth of the city fell."
And most certainly there will need to be much restoration and rebuilding,
but the city is never "destroyed."
As mentioned earlier, Zechariah 12 and 14 make it perfectly clear that
Jerusalem will be RESCUED, SAVED, DELIVERED by the personal presence of
Jesus shortly before the final battle at Armageddon.
Zechariah 12:5, "a strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem
through Yahweh of the armies (hosts), their God."
Verse 6, "while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites
in Jerusalem."
Verse 8, "on that day Yahweh will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem.'
Verse 9, "and it will come about in that day that I will set about to
destroy all the nations that come upon Jerusalem."
Jerusalem has yet the promise of a wonderful and glorious future WITHOUT any
mention of total destruction.
The system and city of Babylonian evil has the promise of an inglorious
future of total ruin and destruction, which is probably reflected at
Jeremiah 50-51, "the word which Yahweh spoke concerning Babylon."
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