REFUTATION OF FRUCHTENBAUM'S REVIEW

In 1991, Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum of Ariel Ministries wrote a review and refutation of Marvin Rosenthal’s book, “The Pre-Wrath Rapture of The Church.” The purpose of this article is to defend the PreWrath rapture of the church as it is challenged by Fruchtenbaum in his review. My intent is not to defend Rosenthal but to defend the core fundamentals of the Pre-Wrath rapture. In the same way that there are many nuances within the pre-trib camp, there are also many nuances within the Pre-Wrath camp. Pre-tribbers do not agree among themselves and pre-wrathers do not agree among themselves. We all have some different ideas about various things, including the chronology and EXACT timing of the rapture in association with the 6th seal of Revelation 6, parallels to Matthew 24, and identification of some of the symbols shown to John the Apostle in the Book of The Revelation. The fact that I believe in the PreWrath rapture does not make me aggressively antagonistic toward pretribbers or post tribbers or any other "tribber" out there. "The Trouble with Tribbles" -- I mean, tribbers -- is that they often place too much "spiritual" value on the issue of the timing of the rapture, rather than on the issues of "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 14:17). For any "tribber" to make accusations of heresy against another simply because he is a different kind of "tribber" is totally without merit. These differences in eschatology should certainly challenge us all to be extra diligent in our Bible studies as we seek to become fully persuaded in our own minds (Romans 14:5), but never should they be the basis for the ridicule and disdain that has been present among many on all sides of the issues under discussion. Accordingly, I will not deal with any of the personal attacks written by Fruchtenbaum, nor with all the points of dispute with Rosenthal’s book. I will support the fundamental claims of the Pre-Wrath rapture view and refute the claims that attempt to support the pre-trib view. There is a lot of discussion about the Pre-Wrath theory that Matthew 24 parallels Revelation 6, but it is not an issue for the validity of the Pre-Wrath position. Even some pre-tribbers see a parallel there, such as Clarence Larkin ( The Book of Revelation, pgs 53-64). I don’t think that parallel exists, and it does not change the fundamentals of the Pre-Wrath view in any way. Accordingly, I will not defend or refute the parallel theory in this article; it is simply not an issue. MATTHEW’S TRIBULATION Concerning the tribulation of Matthew 24:9-29: The prewrath view contends that the tribulation ALSO known as the great tribulation begins at the midpoint of the 70th week of Daniel. Fruchtenbaum disagrees. On page 7, he writes, “That verse uses ‘tribulation’ in reference to the first half of the seven years!” And on page 8, “But Matthew 24:9 does use it for the first half.” The context within the verses, 9-29 require that the tribulation of verse 21 is the same tribulation of verse 9, and that begins at the midpoint of the 70th week. At Mat. 24:9, the KJV translation leads to considerable confusion. It reads, "Then they shall deliver you up to be afflicted. . ." But the Greek word for, "to be afflicted," is the noun, thlipsis, plus the preposition, eis, and should be rendered either, to tribulation or to a tribulation. (It could also be rendered, to affliction or to an affliction as long as the "noun" form is preserved in the translation.) The NASB, translates it properly with the rendering, "to tribulation." In the verses following v. 9, Jesus explains the nature of this tribulation. At v. 15, the word "therefore," must be taken in connection with the tribulation of v. 9. And then at v. 21, the word "for," must be taken as an amplification of vs.15-20. Thus, the whole section from v.9 through 29 is referring to the same period of time. In v. 9, it is called tribulation (or "a tribulation"). In v. 21, it is called great (or a great) tribulation. And in v. 29, it is called, THE tribulation of those days. And at Mark 13:19, it is simply described as “those days will be a tribulation.” It needs to be seen, that Jesus views the progress of history from the period of "beginning birth pangs" up to and into the period called tribulation. At v.15, that period of tribulation is identified as beginning with the abomination of desolation, which we already know to take place at the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week (Dan. 9:27 and 12:11). Thus, according to Jesus, the tribulation period is not 7 years in length but begins in the middle of the week and according to v. 22, shall be cut short so that it does not even last for the remaining 3 1/2 years of the week. Jesus does not even address the first part of the 70th week, and the likely reason is that it is a time of relative peace since it exists under the umbrella of the covenant of peace which according to Daniel 9:27, begins the 70th week. Walvoord writes: “The first three and one-half years are a period in which Israel is apparently protected under a covenant with the Gentile world ruler.” (Revelation, page 131). THE NATURE OF THE TRIBULATION Fruchtenbaum wrote on page 9: “To claim, as Rosenthal does, that the first five seals are not the wrath of God but only the wrath of man is to try to force his position on the text. The fact is that all seven seals are broken by Christ; the first five seals are as much a part of the ‘the wrath of the Lamb’ as are the last two. Furthermore, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in the first four seal judgments are initiated by the four living creatures; so these judgments not only concern ‘man’s activity under the controlling influence of Satan.’ To claim that these seals are only describing the wrath of men goes contrary to the context, since all the seal judgments originate in heaven. In fact, the very damage that they do is described in the Old Testament as resulting from the wrath of God. For example, the seal judgments mention four things: death by sword (Rev. 6:7-8); famine (6:6, 8), wild animals (6:8); and pestilence and plague (6:8). Ezekiel 14:21 states: ‘For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the evil beasts, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast!’ While all four things could be said to be what man does to man, yet it is clearly God who sends all four of these things. The wrath of man may be involved, but not to the exclusion of the wrath of God. That these four things all result from the wrath of God is clearly stated in Ezekiel 14:19.” Nothing written in the above quote proves that the seals are judgments from God. Ezekiel 14:12-21 simply indicates that God CAN and does use certain negative things to judge errant nations. It is not necessary, is it, that every time these 4 items are mentioned together, they MUST refer to God’s wrath? Fruchtenbaum quotes a plethora of Old Testament passages that mention sword, famine, wild animals and pestilence, in connection with judgment and wrath from God, and claims on that basis that those things mentioned at Revelation 6 must also be associated with God’s wrath and judgment. However, while all these things are certainly PERMITTED by God, they are not always DIRECTLY from God. Not all famine is God’s wrath. Genesis 12, 26, 41-47, Acts 11:28 Not all pestilence is God’s wrath. Psalm 91:3, 6 Not all warfare is God’s wrath. James 4:1 And the encroachment of wild animals is not always God’s wrath. The attack of wild animals on David’s flock was not God’s wrath, and Samson’s encounter with the lion was not God’s wrath. THE SEALS The first seal mentions nothing of God, let alone His wrath. It describes a world-ruler who conquers through diplomacy with a threat of violence. This is NOT therefore a time of war. In fact, the very fact that this individual conquers, interrupts the “historical trend” of warfare which has been prevalent in the world since 70 AD. That is, his conquering puts a stop to war. Mat. 24:6-8 “And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for {those things} must take place, but {that} is not yet the end. “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. “But all these things are {merely} the beginning of birth pangs." His conquering actually establishes a time of peace. This is indicated by the fact that when the 2nd seal is opened, we have an individual who “takes THE peace from the earth.” So seal #1 is NOT God’s wrath. It is not even man’s wrath. It is the establishment of the peace covenant of Daniel 9:27 which temporarily resolves the conflicts in the Middle East. Pre-tribbers back themselves into a corner - for on the one hand, they generally contend that the covenant of Daniel 9 is a “peace treaty,” while on the other hand, they claim this is part of the tribulation. To me, at least, that seems inconsistent. Pentecost writes: “There is general agreement among commentators as to the interpretation of the seals. The first (6:2) is generally agreed to represent the peace movements on the part of men as they seek to establish peace on the earth. It may be associated with the covenant made by the Beast to establish peace on the earth.” (Things to Come, page 360). Walvoord writes: “The first three and one-half years are a period in which Israel is apparently protected under a covenant with the Gentile world ruler.” (Revelation, page 131). In reference to Seal #2, we once again find no reference to God or to His wrath. What we do find is another individual and “to him it WAS GRANTED to take the peace from the earth.” The permissive will of God is clearly in view here, as NOTHING can be done apart from His permission. But there is no indication that this is something that God CAUSES to happen as an expression of His wrath. I identify this individual as the world-ruler “gone bad.” That is, after being killed and brought back to life by Satan, he becomes “the beast out of the sea,” who now oppresses the world for 42 months - the second half of the week. It is clear that during the first half of the week this person does NOT oppress the world, but institutes “great tribulation” AFTER the midpoint of the week (Mat. 24:15, 21). We learn that at around this same time, and necessarily some time before the midpoint of the week, Satan is kicked out of heaven and goes forth WITH GREAT WRATH (Rev. 12:12), persecuting the nation of Israel and all Christians (Rev. 12:13-17). Satan controls the world-ruler and through the false prophet, requires everyone to take the mark of the beast or be killed. This effectively removes “the” peace from the earth and replaces it with the beast’s own Satan-inspired religio-political agenda. The only “social” peace that will then exist on the earth will be for those who worship the beast (Rev. 13:11-17). This is not the wrath of God. It is never identified as such. It is assumption to claim that it is. EVERY passage that talks about this period of persecution administered by the beast, NEVER even hints that it is God’s wrath, or even judgment from Him. Quite to the contrary, it is everywhere represented as man oppressing man. In fact, God’s wrath is not mentioned until the 6th seal when the earth dwellers properly associate the PRESENCE of Christ in the clouds of the sky with the time for God’s wrath to come. Seal #3 does not mention God’s wrath. Instead, it simply indicates that there are severe economic shortages. This is perfectly consistent with the economic controls of the beast, for those of the world who do not adhere to beast worship will not be able to engage in normal economic activity, and many, where the beast’s troops can reach them, will be killed for their refusal to worship. Thus it is that 1/4 of the earth will be severely affected by the adverse results of these economic controls. That is represented at seal #4. Seal #4 indicates that 1/4 of the “inhabited” earth will be affected by death from four sources. Most commentators understand this to refer to 1/4 of the population dying. This does not make it God’s wrath. It simply indicates the results of the beast’s religious and economic policy which denies “peace and security” to those who do not have the mark of the beast. For the beast worshippers there will be no affliction until after Jesus returns at the Day of the Lord. It is then that “those who afflict you” will be repaid with affliction themselves (2 Thes. 1:6). And of course, seal #5, which shows us martyrs for THE FAITH is absolutely not connected with the wrath of God. Now - if there were reasons to assign God’s wrath to the seals, I could agree. But there are no reasons. 1. Seals #1 and 2 when compared together indicate that seal #1 is a time of peace - and not wrath from God. 2. Seal #5 is NOT God’s wrath. 3. Seal #6, which, when compared with scripture, parallels Joel 2:32 and Mat. 24:29, and refers to the Day of the Lord - when Jesus comes back. 4. Seal #6 comes MANY months after the first four seals. These things will have already been going on for quite some time. Seal #1 begins the 70th week. Seal #2 is probably the midpoint of the week. 5. The FIRST time God’s wrath is mentioned is in connection with the 6th seal, which serves as kind of an announcement that the day of God’s wrath “has come.” That is, it is now HERE to be experienced. That is why they all try to hide and protect themselves. They don’t do this in connection with the first 4 seals. There is no need to. The only ones who FLEE during the persecution of the beast are the Israelites who hide in the wilderness (Rev. 12), and any one who does not want to line up with beast worship for whatever reason. Seal #6 is telling us - here comes God’s wrath. It is NOT telling us - oh by the way, God’s wrath has been falling on you all these months - through the seals I have just mentioned. Fruchtenbaum writes: “The fact is that all seven seals are broken by Christ; the first five seals are as much a part of the ‘the wrath of the Lamb’ as are the last two.” Of course they are broken by Christ. Christ is the controller of human history! Nothing happens except what HE ALLOWS. The opening of the seals indicates ONLY that God’s PERMISSIVE will is in operation. They do not demand that it be a “direct” outpouring of His wrath. To claim it to be God’s wrath - is only speculation. In fact, the scroll is what contains God’s wrath. The seals represent events that occur BEFORE the scroll is read; before God’s wrath comes. LOOK CLOSELY at what Walvoord writes: “. . . it does seem to indicate that beginning with the sixth seal God is undertaking a direct intervention into human affairs. The judgments of war, famine, and earth, and the martyrdom of the saints have largely originated in human decision and in the evil heart of man. The judgment described here, however, originates in God as the divine punishment inflicted upon a blasphemous world.” (Revelation, page 136). And: “The events are of such a character that all are impressed with the fact that the day of the wrath of the Lord has come and their judgment IS NOW ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE.” (emphasis mine) Concerning the cosmic signs mentioned at the 6th seal, Walvoord writes: “The resulting impression upon the unbelieving world is that the time of the judgment of God has come.” (Revelation, page 137). Fruchtenbaum writes: “To claim that these seals are only describing the wrath of men goes contrary to the context, since all the seal judgments originate in heaven.” There is NO WRATH in the context until seal six. They are not even described as “judgments.” I don’t think it is valid to say that the seals originate from heaven, and even if they did, it would not necessitate that they be an administration of divine judgment and wrath. There is no mention of ORIGINATION. Everything that John is seeing is of course a vision viewed from his heavenly perspective. I repeat a previous point. If these seals are to be viewed as judgments and wrath, BECAUSE of a supposed heavenly origination, that would require the consistent view that seal #5 is likewise from judgment and wrath. And yet, the martyrdom of believers is absolutely not from divine judgment and wrath. It should be very clear that there is a stark contrast between the HUMAN triggered events of the first 5 seals and the 6th seal, which involves supernatural signs in the heavens and the arrival (presence) of Jesus, The Lamb of God. THE TRIBULATION CUT SHORT Jesus taught that the tribulation would be cut short as per Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:20. “For then there will be great tribulation unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the world until now, or ever will happen. And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short” (Matthew 24:21-22). “For in those days there will be tribulation unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, or ever will happen. And if the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would be saved. But because of the elect, whom he chose, he has cut them short” (Mark 13:19-20). The PreWrath view teaches that this “cutting short” is an interruption of the beast’s oppressive activity so that he does not destroy all people (all flesh) who reject beast worship, which would include the elect (Christians). The return of Jesus cuts short or interrupts the beast’s ability to persecute the church and Israel, but does not end his reign. This interruption occurs at an unknown day or hour AFTER the midpoint of the week, that is, DURING the tribulation. Since the official reign of the beast is to be 42 months, it would be EXPECTED, based on Daniel 12, that his oppression would also last as long. However, the return of Jesus, at that UNEXPECTED day or hour, puts a damper on the beast’s ability to carry out his persecution agenda because the trumpet judgments will bring great hardship on him and his kingdom. It thus, ends the intensity of the persecution several months SHORT of the “expected” end; the end of the 70th week. After the tribulation is interrupted, the Lord will begin to judge the beast and his kingdom (the earth dwellers) with the trumpet and bowl judgments. Since the 5th trumpet judgment lasts for 5 months, the REMAINING time after the arrival of Jesus at the 6th seal, MUST be at least that long. Since the judgments from the other trumpets probably take a bit of time, it is probably safe to add at least an additional month. Thus, the remaining time is AT LEAST 6 months until the 70th week ends. However, it can be longer. Fruchtenbaum writes concerning the cutting short of the tribulation on pages 11-12. “However, that is not the only option, or even the best option for the meaning of Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:20. The context of that verse (Matt. 24:15-22; Mark 13:1420) is dealing with the persecution of the Jews, instigated by the Abomination of Desolation which occurs at the mid-point of the seven years; and Matthew 24:15 reminds the hearer that it is the same one spoken of by Daniel the Prophet (Dan. 9:27; 12:11).” At this point it is imperative to deal with a common misconception. It is supposed by most dispensationalists that Matthew 24 is dealing with the Jews, and that the church is not in view as Jesus answers the FOUR questions of the disciples, that are triggered by Jesus’ prediction that the temple will be destroyed. 1. When will these things be? Matthew 24:3; Mark 13:4; Luke 21:7 2. What will be the sign of these things? Luke 21:7; Mark 13:4 3. What will be the sign of your coming? Matthew 24:3 4. And the sign of the end of the age? Matthew 24:3 Jesus is teaching the disciples as representatives of THE CHURCH. They are NOT representatives of unbelieving Israel. 1. The Olivet Discourse was given IN PRIVATE to the disciples (Matt. 24:3). The parallel verses in Mark establish which four specific disciples were present for this teaching. So the "you" here should be the disciples and their successors, the believers who will be alive during the End Times. 2. If the "you" in the Olivet Discourse is unbelieving Jews, why are they said to be "hated by all nations because of My name" (Matt. 24:9)? Only those who believe in Jesus suffer for HIS NAME. 3. Why are they told, in Matt 24:42, "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day YOUR LORD is coming"? Jesus is NOT the Lord of the unsaved, but of the SAVED (believers of the Church). Accordingly, the information recorded for us in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 as well, gives us an outline for the history of the church up until the gathering of the elect (church age believers) out from this world at the arrival of the Day of the LORD which is the event that triggers the end of the age, and is “announced” through the signs in the sun, moon and stars. AT Matthew 24:4, Jesus mentions the possibility of deception for believers. This possibility requires specific information so that the church might be oriented to the progress of history and not be distracted from her evangelistic purpose. If the church, or more specifically, individual believers, get too distracted and discouraged at the progress of evil in the world, they will lose sight of the true objective for their continued sojourn here on the earth as is indicated at 1 Peter 2:9. But you are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation a people designated for a possession, so that you may proclaim the virtues of Him Who called you out of darkness, into His awesome light. At 1 Peter 4.12, we are told that we should not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you which comes upon you for your testing, as though A STRANGE THING were happening to you; Thus, we have the Olivet Discourse, wherein Jesus orients us to the historical trends that will occur during the church age, leading up to His return in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. Fruchtenbaum continues: “This persecution of the Jews will be worse than anything they have ever suffered in the past, and never will they suffer anything like this again. In fact, if God did not at some point put a stop to this persecution, no Jews would survive. And so God will bring the period of persecution to a stop.” But the persecution that is in view is NOT on the Jews ONLY. According to Revelation 12:17, the persecution is ALSO on those who “hold to the testimony of Jesus.” In fact, Revelation 12 gives us a clear distinction between two groups of people. The first group is THE WOMAN, who is UNBELIEVING Israel and who will be protected by God in the wilderness for the duration of the 2nd half of the week. The second group is DISTINCT from “the woman” because they are described as BELIEVERS; that is, those who “hold to the testimony of Jesus.” But why, then, is the focus on Jerusalem and the abomination that is placed in the Jewish temple? The reason for that is because THAT is where the beast centers his claim to be God. The warning to flee is for any BELIEVER who is in Judea. But WHO will be aware of the warning? It will be ONLY those who are familiar with the teaching in Matthew 24. The unbelieving Jews won’t be reading this information, but there will be many Christians in the area functioning, as they should be, as evangelists to Israel. At the midpoint of the week is the time to get out. That is why the real focus of application is to YOU – the followers of the disciples who are the ones addressed in this message. Furthermore, this “confiscation” of the Jewish temple is the sign TO THE CHURCH that the beast has arrived and that the tribulation has now begun. That is why Paul writes to THE CHURCH in 2 Thessalonians and describes the revealing of the man of lawlessness in connection with his session in the temple of God (2 Thes. 2:4). There Paul tells us that this revealing of the man of lawlessness will come BEFORE “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him.” And so Jesus tells the disciples, AND the church as an extension of the disciples, “even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near; at the door.” When the tribulation begins, the church will know that the time is near for Jesus to arrive in the clouds of the sky to gather His elect to meet Him in the air. We will know THE SEASON, but the day and hour we will not know (Mat. 24:31-44; 1 Thes. 4:13-17). Fruchtenbaum continues: “What is being "shortened" is the persecution period so as to allow the Jews to survive. Now comes a question: How long is this period of Jewish persecution to last? Is it only 21 months? Only one quarter: the third quarter of the seven years? On the contrary; the period of persecution of the Jews, which is the context of Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20, is exactly three and one-half years, the second half of the seven years. This is twice stated in Daniel (Dan. 9:27; 12:5-7)--and it is Daniel who gave the beginning point of the persecution as being the Abomination of Desolation. It is this very point that Jesus picked up (Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:14) and gave it as a sign for the Jews to flee the land.” Sadly, all of this is based on the wrong assumption that Jesus is addressing the nation of Israel. The context simply does not allow for that focus. But what about the stated length of the great tribulation; is it 3 ½ years? Based on Daniel 9:27 and 12:5-7 and LATER, in Revelation 12:6, 14 and 13:5, the ASSUMED length of the time of great tribulation would be for the remaining length of the 70th week (1260 days; 42 months; 3 ½ years). But that time factor is talking about the length of the beast’s official reign and not on the actual duration of INTENSE persecution. Yes, the reign of the beast and his INTENT to destroy the Jews will continue until Armageddon. But his ability to carry out his agenda will be INTERRUPTED and GREATLY impeded once the trumpet judgments begin. Thus, it can be technically stated, that the GREAT tribulation will have ceased. Notice the connection of a few ideas in Matthew 24. (1) The tribulation of verse 9 begins with the abomination of desolation of verse 15 (THEREFORE, when you see . . .”) (2) Based on Old Testament data, the disciples who are the recipients of this information, would EXPECT that this tribulation would last for the 3 ½ years mentioned by Daniel. (3) The tribulation will be CUT SHORT or ENDED when Jesus arrives in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. (4) If the end comes AFTER the 1290 days of Daniel 12:11, then it can be predicted. (5) But Jesus says that no one knows the DAY or the hour of His return. (6) The reason for that is because that UNKNOWN day occurs PRIOR to the completion of the 1290 days. (7) And that is why Jesus tells us that the tribulation will be CUT SHORT. The idea is that it will be cut short of its EXPECTED duration by the UNEXPECTED return of Jesus in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. (8) If the oppression of the beast were allowed to continue for the duration of the remaining 1290 days, THEN, all “believing” flesh would be killed. Remember, the beast is seeking to kill those “connected” with God, and not the rest of the people on the earth. Fruchtenbaum contradicts these truths as he continues: “Obviously, the period of Jewish persecution is not being "shortened," and neither is the rest of the Great Tribulation being "shortened" since here, in the Olivet Discourse, the two are contemporaneous. So, what is being "shortened"? As Rosenthal himself noted in the above quotation, the word can also have the meaning of "cut short." That is the meaning here. In other words, the period of Jewish persecution and the period of "great tribulation" for the Jews will be suddenly cut short in the sense that it will not be allowed to continue even one day beyond its allotted time. God will allow the Antichrist to persecute Jews for exactly 1,260 days, and not one second beyond that. Once the last second comes, it will be suddenly cut short for the sake of Jewish survival.” This is CRUCIAL. The above ideas contradict Matthew 24:36-44. “But of that day and hour no one knows.” However, SINCE the tribulation is ended by the arrival of Jesus, then one cannot claim that it “will be suddenly cut short in the sense that it will not be allowed to continue even one day beyond its allotted time. God will allow the Antichrist to persecute Jews for exactly 1,260 days, and not one second beyond that.” It is the return of the Lord Jesus that CUTS SHORT the tribulation, and that return is stated to occur at some unknown day and hour when the unbelieving world is least expecting it. THE DAY OF THE LORD The duration of the Day of the Lord is not relevant to the timing of the rapture. What is relevant to that timing is the INCEPTION of the Day of the Lord. Accordingly, the discussion about whether the Day of the Lord extends into the Millennial kingdom or not will not be addressed here. GRAMMATICAL CONSTRUCTION FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD On page 15, Fruchtenbaum writes: “In his defense, however, Rosenthal does make a major blunder, showing he is not always careful with the text: ‘The prophets . . . spoke of the Day of the Lord with the definite article – they knew of only one such event.’ (p. 129). As anyone in first-year Hebrew class would know, never, in any of the appearances of the term in the Hebrew Bible, is it used with the definite article. He is obviously relying only on an English translation. . . Rosenthal is guilty of a linguistic flaw.” Since Fruchtenbaum makes such a big issue of this, it should be noted that at Joel 2:31, we find this phrase, “before the great and awesome Day of the Lord comes.” The Hebrew construction here looks like this: Lipenay (before) bo (comes) yom (day of) yehwah (Yahweh; Lord) hagadol (THE great) wehanorah (and THE awesome, or terrible one). That little HA in hagadol and wehanorah is the definite article. The occurrence of the definite article with the two descritiptions (THE great, and THE awesome), MAKES the noun that is described ALSO DEFINITE. Thus, it is the intended meaning to see this as THE Day of the Lord. But even more significant, there must be a reason that all the English translations render the term as THE day of the Lord in its several occurrences. There is. The construction consists of the word, yom (day) in the construct form, which is translated as DAY OF. The construct state gives us a “genitive” type relationship, thus, “word OF” or “eyes OF” or “day OF.” The choice between “a word of” or “THE word of,” depends on whether the SECOND noun in the construction is DEFINITE or not, that is, if it has the definite article (the). If the second word is definite, then the noun in the construct form is definite. Thus, word of THE man, should be THE word of the man. And “word of man” should be “A word of a man.” The basic rule of grammar for this construction is that a proper noun is always definite. Thus, “word of Yahweh” should be THE word of Yahweh. And “eyes of Yahweh” should be “THE eyes of Yahweh. And “day of Yahweh” should be “THE day of Yahweh.” Thus, the intended meaning and PROPER translation of the phrase is THE day of the Lord. So, it appears that our reviewer himself is guilty of a linguistic flaw. DEFINITION of the Day of the Lord The PreWrath rapture view teaches that the Day of the Lord will begin at a time after the midpoint of the 70th week of Daniel. Fruchtenbaum writes on page 15 that “the Day of the Lord . . . actually covers the whole seven-year period.” He then lists as proof of that statement: "Isaiah 2:12-22; 13:6-16; Ezekiel 30:1-9; Joel 1:15-20; Obadiah 10-20; Zephaniah 1:14-18; and, 2 Peter 3:10-12; Ezekiel 13:1-7; Joel 2:1-11; 3:14-17; Amos 5:18-20; and Zephaniah 1:7-13." But NONE of these passages identify a 7-year period or associate the Day of the Lord with a 7-year period or the time of tribulation. We should all know that the only place in the Old Testament that mentions a 7-year period, and a 3 ½ year period is in Daniel. And the only places that mention the tribulation specifically are Jeremiah 30:4-7; Daniel 12:1 and Hosea 5:15. The passages listed by Fruchtenbaum certainly mention the Day of the Lord, but do not identify its duration, but only its characteristics. They don’t need to be addressed at this time. PreWrath teaches that the return of Jesus, the rapture, and the beginning of the Day of the Lord, which is the outpouring of God’s wrath, all occur in direct connection with the 6th seal of Revelation 6. A comparison of passages shows us that the rapture occurs with a loud trumpet sound (Mat. 24:30; 1Cor. 15:52; 1Thes. 4:16). Rosenthal sees “the last trump” of 1Cor. 15:51-52 as a comprehensive whole of the 7th seal, the trumpets and the bowls – the wrath of God. Fruchtenbaum’s disagreement with Rosenthal’s definition of the last trump is valid. I disagree with it too. However, Fruchtenbaum writes on page 16, “Nor is there any reason to assume that the trumpet at the Rapture is connected with the final outpouring of God’s wrath. No wrath is mentioned in either passage.” But, as soon as the rapture occurs, it is the time for God’s wrath to come. Even the pre-tribbers believe this. The word WRATH does not need to be mentioned specifically for wrath to be involved. It is the LENGTH of time between the rapture and the outpouring of judgment/wrath that is in question. At 1Thes. 5:1-3, the Day of the Lord will come SUDDENLY like a thief in the night, and at that very time, “sudden ruin” will come on the earth dwellers. No wrath is mentioned here, but the RUIN that is in view is FROM the wrath of God that will be poured out upon them. At 2Thes. 1:6-7, the AFFLICTION that will come on the earth dwellers after Jesus is “revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire” and delivers the church at the rapture, will certainly be FROM WRATH. The word does not need to be mentioned. However back at 1Thes. 1:10, the return of Jesus to deliver those who are waiting for Him, is directly connected with “the wrath to come.” Thus, when “the last trumpet” (1Cor. 15:52) is blown and the trumpet of God (1Thes. 4:16) is sounded, and the angels are sent with a great trumpet (Matthew 24:31), the rapture will occur. And although the trumpet is FOR the church, it is still the TIME that the wrath of God will now be poured out. And when the earth dwellers SEE the arrival of Jesus in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory, they will KNOW that He is coming with wrath. The 6th seal shows us that at the PRESENCE of God, the people will try to hide and beg to be delivered “from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has arrived, and who is able to stand?” This of course is not the exact language that will be used when the event actually occurs, but this is HOW IT IS PORTRAYED in John’s vision. They will not SEE “him who sits on the throne” or “the Lamb.” These are just the images in John’s vision. But they will see it as Jesus described it in Matthew 24, “Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.” Fruchtenbaum writes on page 17, “The reviewer does not start the Day of the Lord with the rapture, but with the signing of the seven-year covenant. Nor does he place the Day of the Lord beyond the seven years. However, neither position actually (a)effects pre-Tribulationism.” The Day of the Lord does not start at the signing of the covenant. And WHEN the Day starts DOES affect one’s view of the rapture. The arrival of the Day of the Lord is directly connected with the arrival of Jesus and the rapture.   TIME GAP Concerning ANY significant length of time between the rapture and the outpouring of God’s wrath, Fruchtenbaum writes on page 18: “Rosenthal insists that ‘The Scriptures do not allow that kind of extended gap between the Rapture and the Day of the Lord judgment.’ That is nothing but a dogmatic statement which has neither the force of logic nor Scripture to support it, to use Rosenthal's own framed phraseology. Where in Scripture does it say that the Day of the Lord immediately follows the Rapture? Neither of the two central passages on the Rapture say that. Nor does any other.” The Scripture does in fact show that the wrath of God comes upon the earth dwellers within a very short time after the rapture. The passage is 1 Thessalonians 4:16 - 5:3, which is quite familiar to all of us, I’m sure. The subject at the end of chapter 4 (remembering that such divisions are only man-made, and Paul is not changing the subject at all), is the coming of Jesus and the rapture of the church. The rapture is directly connected with the term, Day of the Lord. “Therefore comfort one another with these words,” (verse 18). Verse 5:1, “now as to the chronologies and the time periods (concerning the rapture), brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. BECAUSE you yourselves KNOW that the day of the Lord (the time that Jesus arrives and raptures the church) will come just like a thief in the night.” It SHOULD be clear that in Paul’s mind, the gathering of the saints and the Day of the Lord are seen to occur at the same time. And when this occurs, it is described as “sudden ruin.” This cannot refer to the beginning of the 70th week, for the first half is a time of peace as has already been demonstrated. Of even greater clarity is 2Thes. 2:1-2, where the three terms used MUST by context be directly connected. Paul writes to them to be unshaken concerning (1) the coming of the Lord AND (2) our gathering together to Him, in view of having heard that (3) the Day of the Lord has begun. The start of the Day of the Lord is directly connected with the coming of the Lord and the gathering. In the previous chapter (2Thes. 1:7), Paul connects affliction from God on the earth dwellers (judgment and wrath; “dealing out retribution”), DIRECTLY with when “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,” AND with the deliverance of the believers (giveback relief to you who are afflicted), which MUST, of course, be the rapture. The PreWrath view uses the two examples that Jesus gives of the world’s attitude prior to the arrival of Jesus and the arrival of the day of the Lord, to show the immediate connection between that arrival and the pouring out of divine wrath. While Rosenthal and some other pre-wrathers insist that these examples demand that God’s wrath come ON THE VERY SAME DAY that the arrival of Jesus comes, I, and others do not see it that way. What the examples show is that it is NOW TIME for judgment; that is, the DAY of judgment has NOW begun. In actuality, there could be a few days before the judgment (wrath) is actually poured out, because the 144 thousand Jews need to be converted before the judgment starts (Rev. 7:1-3). However, Fruchtenbaum’s review still needs to be addressed. He writes: “An example: the author cites Luke 17:24 and dogmatically asserts that ‘in his day’ must refer to the Day of the Lord; and he insists that this is a "clear reference" to that effect. This is a case of presupposition, since the Day of the Lord has not been mentioned in the preceding context. It is Rosenthal himself who has shown that the common phrase ‘in that day’ does not always refer to the "Day of the Lord"; and the same thing holds true right here: ‘in his day’ need not refer to the Day of the Lord, and the context does not demand it, nor does it even imply it.” The problem here is that Fruchtenbaum fails to realize that HIS DAY is in fact when the day of the Lord begins, as I have shown above. What other meaning can be ascribed to “in His day” except the day that He comes back? Ah, but there is the other problem. Fruchtenbaum continues: “The verse is clearly speaking about the second coming itself, which will be seen everywhere. ‘In his day’ is a clear reference to the day of the second coming and not a return to a period of time known as the Day of the Lord, whether that period includes the entire seven years or the last 21 months.” The PreWrath view sees only ONE second coming. The descent at Armageddon (Rev. 19) is not the second coming, but the PHYSICAL descent to the earth IN CONNECTION with the judgments that are poured out AFTER Jesus arrives in the clouds of the sky at the 6th seal. When Jesus taught about His second coming, He had only ONE SECOND COMING in mind. Throughout the Old Testament, the coming of the Messiah was viewed from two perspectives. The first presence of the Messiah would be one of humility and service to provide spiritual deliverance for both Israel and the world (Luke 2:29-32), whereas the second presence would be to provide physical deliverance for Israel (His people), judge the unbelieving world, and set up a physical earthly kingdom under the rule of the Messiah. This second coming of the Messiah is described by the term The Day of the Lord, and involves not only the point-of-time arrival of the Messiah, but also a period of time wherein certain events will occur. The ONE COMING of the Messiah in glory and judgment involves first a physical arrival TO the earth in the clouds of the sky, and then later, a physical descent ONTO the earth in the land of Palestine, at which time Israel will be delivered from invading armies, and the unbelievers of the land will be judged. However, the arrival IN THE CLOUDS was not the focus in the Old Testament because the Old Testament emphasized God’s physical deliverance of national Israel. The incarnation of The Word, Jesus, the Son of Joseph, the Son of God, fulfilled all that the Old Testament prophesied about the first coming of the Messiah, and while He ministered here on the earth, He taught about His second coming. I suggest that Jesus ever had in mind only ONE future coming, and that the teachings were directed to His disciples as those who would carry on the ministry of Light after the resurrection right up until the time that He would physically descend from heaven at the Day of the Lord. As Jesus taught about this momentous event, He usually emphasized the initial point-of-time arrival, but sometimes focused on the deliverance of His people, and sometimes on the judgment to be meted out on the world. At other times He would describe certain things that would happen subsequent to that arrival that would amplify the judgment aspect of His arrival. Furthermore, Jesus introduced us to a new factor that will be associated with His arrival, and that is that the deliverance aspect of His arrival will involve a physical removal from the earth of those who have trusted in Him just prior to pouring out His physical judgments on the world. In all cases, Jesus had only ONE arrival in view; ONE second coming, and in every case, it would be a visible, glorious and spectacular REVELATION of His PRESENCE that would be a source of great hope for believers (His elect) and great fear and judgment for the unbeliever. It is to be just as Paul described at Titus 2:13, “looking for the joyful hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our savior, Christ Jesus.” And as John described it at Revelation 1:7, “Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him.” The New Testament doctrine of the second coming depends first and foremost on the teachings of Jesus and then the apostles. The apostles did not teach anything new or different than what Jesus taught; they simply provided amplification through the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit (John 16:13). Many claim that because the rapture is MYSTERY doctrine, it could not be known or taught about either in the Old Testament or by Jesus. Because of this, it is claimed, when Jesus was teaching about the second coming, He could not have been referring to His arrival in the clouds to rapture out His believers. However, we know that Jesus did teach about the rapture in the upper room at John 14:1-3. Accordingly, He could just as well have been teaching about the same thing when He mentioned His second coming on previous occasions. In fact, this is exactly what the disciples would understand Jesus to have in mind when He told them that "I will come again and take you to Myself." They would think back just a few days when He taught that "in those days after that tribulation. . . the Son of Man . . . will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth, to the farthest end of heaven" (Mark 13:24-27). The arrival and gathering of the elect at Matthew 24:30-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is the same gathering of the elect at John 14:1-3. And it is the same arrival and gathering of the elect as at 1Thes. 4:13-17. Fruchtenbaum continues: The analogy Rosenthal uses is that of Noah and Lot. In the day that Lot left Sodom the city was destroyed; and in the day that Noah entered into the ark, the flood came. Rosenthal states: ‘Noah entered the ark, then the judgment began--on the same day.’ The statement is correct for Lot, and the text does teach that Sodom was destroyed the same day Lot left Sodom. But, the statement is not true in reference to Noah. Luke 17:27 simply states that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. There is nothing Jesus said that implies that the judgment came ‘on the same day’ that Noah entered the ark.” I suggest that “on the same day” is indeed exactly what is meant. NOT – that the actual judgment comes one minute later, but that it is NOW TIME for judgment. Thus Paul writes at 1Thes. 5:3, that it will be “sudden ruin,” and “they shall not escape.” And at the 6th seal, when they see THE ARRIVAL of Jesus, they KNOW that “the day of their wrath has come.” This fact does not allow for ANY time of “peace” AFTER Jesus arrives; either before the 70th week or during the first half of the 70th week. The order is signs, arrival, rapture, judgment. Fruchtenbaum states on page 19: “Rosenthal’s concluding statement, ‘Deliverance of the righteous immediately precedes judgment of the wicked,’is strictly a fallacy. ‘To postulate a period of time between rapture (deliverance) and wrath (judgment) is to contradict the Scriptures,’ is patently untrue, and NONE of the passages cited by Rosenthal prove this bold assertion.” Let the reader be the judge. THE SEALS OF REVELATION SIX - again Fruchtenbaum states on page 21: “Now, what about the first six seals? Rosenthal insists that they are not part of the wrath of God; nor are they any part of the judgment of God, but only show what men do to men. It is hard to escape the conclusion that Rosenthal must do all kinds of exegetical gymnastics to skirt around the obvious fact that the seals are a divine judgment of God.” And on page 23: “A simple, honest look at Revelation six, without preconceived notions, will clearly show that all the seals are divine judgments from God, and so the judgment of God is already present in the first half of the seven years – the place where Rosenthal himself puts the first five seals.” As I have shown quite extensively, there are no “exegetical gymnastics” involved or any “preconceived notions.” In fact, I suggest that ANYONE reading Revelation six without any preconceived notions will see NOTHING of God’s wrath until the sixth seal. The scroll that is sealed is the scroll that CONTAINS God’s wrath. Before that scroll can be read; before God’s wrath can be poured out, the seals around the scroll have to be removed. (1) Seals one through five: Many HISTORICAL things will happen; political conquering, warfare, economic hardship, death from many sources, and even persecution of God’s people. YOU be the judge. Is there any reason to see some SPECIFIC judgment or wrath from God in these things? (2) Seal six: Some supernatural signs in the sun, moon and stars and great fear and panic in the people on the earth BECAUSE they see the arrival of God and associate it with the ARRIVAL of His wrath. “For the day of their wrath has come.” This is exactly what John stated at Revelation 1:7. The events of the first 5 seals do not show God’s wrath. The SIGNS and the ARRIVAL of the Lord portend the presence of God’s wrath. (3) Revelation 7: In John’s vision, the day of wrath has come. It should be clear that hurting the earth and the sea constitutes God’s wrath that was just mentioned. But BEFORE that wrath/judgment is poured out on “the earth or the sea or the trees,” the 144,000 Jews are sealed. (4) Seventh seal: After the 144,000 are sealed, what comes next? It should be THAT wrath that was mentioned at the 6th seal. So, the 7th seal is opened and FIRE from the altar is poured out on the earth. Fire from the altar represents divine judgment. Does WRATH have to be mentioned? NO. If it is “fire” from God that starts to destroy the earth, then IT IS GOD’S WRATH. And what now happens on the earth via the trumpets of judgment? The earth, the sea and the trees are HURT. Where does the reader see “exegetical gymnastics” or “preconceived notions?” (5) The clear chronological flow of the text shows us that the JUDGMENT of God which is PORTENDED by the MULTIPLE cosmic disturbances of the 6th seal, occur AT the 7th seal. THE ARRIVAL OF THE DAY OF THE LORD The PreWrath position teaches that the Day of the Lord will begin immediately AFTER some severe cosmic disturbances that are summed up by signs in the sun, moon and stars (The 7th seal occurs after the 6th seal). There are other times DURING the time frame of the Day of the Lord that cosmic disturbances occur (Rev. 8:12; 16:18), however, there is only ONE TIME when they ALL occur together. It is THAT time that announces the Day of the Lord. The PreWrath position understands that Joel 2:30-31, Matthew 24:29, and Revelation 6:12-17 (as well as others) refer to the very same event; the arrival of the Day of the Lord. Joel 2:30-31 tells us that the sign in the sun, moon and stars occurs BEFORE the Day of the Lord arrives. Matthew 24:29 tells us that the return of Jesus occurs immediately AFTER the signs in the sun, moon and stars. Revelation 6:12-17 tells us that the “great day of their wrath” comes AFTER the signs in the sun, moon and stars. Fruchtenbaum writes on page 24: “Rosenthal lumps all mentioned cosmic disturbances into one, ignoring the timing given in the text. For example, the Isaiah 13:9-10 and Joel 3:14-15 passages clearly take place WITHIN the Day of the Lord, as even a casual reading of the text will show. Joel 2:30-31 describes cosmic disturbances BEFORE the Day of the Lord. In the prophetic scheme of things, there are several cosmic disturbances.” Actually, neither Rosenthal nor pre-wrathers in general, lump them all together. In regard to this issue, the reader is called upon to examine each of the several places where cosmic disturbances occur and determine for himself, WHERE in the prophetic scheme of things, those disturbances should be placed. But I shall deal with some of them. First of all, the MAIN point of comparison is between Joel 2:30-31; Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6. This has already been discussed above. Our major concern then is with the OTHER passages where the MULTIPLE cosmic disturbances are mentioned. I suggest that there are times when the cosmic disturbances are mentioned and the event that follows does NOT occur immediately after those signs, but occurs later, while still being PART of the Day of the Lord judgments. In Isaiah 13:3-13, the invasion of a large army is in view; an event that occurs “probably” at the 6th trumpet of Revelation 9:13-19. It is portended by the same TRIPLE signs in the sun, moon and stars. Fruchtenbaum disassociates this from the Joel 2:30-31 passage because he MUST place the Joel triple signs BEFORE the Day of the Lord and thus, BEFORE the 7-years of Daniel’s 70th week. He wrote on page 17, “The reviewer does not start the Day of the Lord with the Rapture, but with the signing of the seven-year covenant.” So, of course, he sees no connection. However, when we accept the fact that the triple signs occur as an announcement that the Day of the Lord has arrived (Joel 2:30-31), and the world can now expect WRATH from God (Rev. 6:16-17), the mention of them at Isaiah 13 is perfectly consistent. For AFTER the triple signs, the wrath of God will begin to be poured out, and very soon the invasion of this great army will occur, as part of that judgment from God. Isaiah 13:3-13 Verses 3-5, I have commanded My consecrated ones, I have even called My mighty warriors, My proudly exulting ones, To {execute} My anger. A sound of tumult on the mountains, like that of many people! A sound of the uproar of kingdoms, of nations gathered together! The LORD of hosts is mustering the army for battle. They are coming from a far country from the farthest horizons, The LORD and His instruments of indignation, to destroy the whole land. (Verses 3-5 tell us that God is going to send an army against the WHOLE EARTH as an expression of His wrath.) Verse 6, Wail, for the day of the LORD is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. (Verse 6 tells us that the Day of the Lord is near, which CLEARLY associates this invasion with the Day of the Lord.) Verses 7-8, Therefore all hands will fall limp, And every man’s heart will melt. And they will be terrified, Pains and anguish will take hold of {them}; they will writhe like a woman in labor, they will look at one another in astonishment, their faces aflame. (Verses 7-8 tell us that THEREFORE, because of the arrival of the Day of the Lord, there will be great mourning and panic.) Verse 9, Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, to make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it. (Verse 9 again warns, “The Day of the Lord is coming” in order to judge the sinners; the earth dwellers.) Verse 10, For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises, And the moon will not shed its light. (Verse 10 shows us the signs in the sun, moon and stars that come BEFORE the Day of the Lord actually arrives.) Verses 11-12, thus I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud, and abase the haughtiness of the ruthless. I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold, and mankind than the gold of Ophir. (Verses 11-12 repeat that this is judgment from God’s wrath upon the sinners.) Verse 13, Therefore I shall make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken from its place at the fury of the LORD of hosts in the day of His burning anger. (Verse 13 again mentions the cosmic and earthly disturbances that ANNOUNCE that God’s wrath has come.) This perfectly corresponds with Luke 21:25-26 “the roaring of the sea and the waves . . . for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” and Rev. 6:14 “And the sky was separated like a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.” The difference at Isaiah 13 is that it does not specifically mention the ARRIVAL of the Lord. The reason for that is because the FOCUS is on the great army that will devastate the earth sometime AFTER the Day of the Lord arrives. However, it does not NEED to be mentioned because “that day” has already been mentioned in Isaiah 2 and directly associated with the ARRIVAL of the Lord. Verse 2:12, “for the Lord of Hosts will have A DAY.” Verse 2:17, “and the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.” Verses 2:19-21 “They will go into caves in the rocky cliffs and into holes in the ground, trying to escape the dreadful judgment of the Lord and his royal splendor, when he rises up to terrify the earth. At that time men will throw their silver and gold idols, which they made for themselves to worship, into the caves where rodents and bats live, so they themselves can go into the crevices of the rocky cliffs and the openings under the rocky overhangs, trying to escape the dreadful judgment of the Lord and his royal splendor, when he rises up to terrify the earth.” (NEB) I repeat again what Fruchtenbaum wrote: “For example, the Isaiah 13:9-10 and Joel 3:14-15 passages clearly take place WITHIN the Day of the Lord, as even a casual reading of the text will show.” As we saw with Isaiah 13, the same thing can be said of Joel 2 and 3. The prophet is telling about the invasion of the king of the North (v. 2:20), which will occur as part of God’s wrath. Joel 2:1, “The Day of the Lord is coming.” Then in verses 2-9, he describes the Northern army that will invade the land; the same army of Isaiah 13. At verse 10, “Before IT (singular in the Hebrew) – The earth quakes. The heavens tremble. The sun and the moon grow dark. And the stars lose their brightness. And the Lord utters His voice. These things happen BEFORE the Day of the Lord arrives. But they are mentioned here in reference to the invasion of the king of the North, which happens a significant amount of time after the Day begins. As the passage continues, Joel gives information about the invading army, the defeat of that army, and the millennial kingdom that follows. But at verse 30-31, Joel BACKS UP and tells once again, WHAT will be seen BEFORE the Day of the Lord begins; the disturbances on the earth and the cosmic signs. Chapter three backs up again and covers the military invasion that will culminate at Armageddon, in the valley of the decision (V. 14); the valley of Yahweh’s judgment (v. 12), when Christ finally steps foot on the earth to personally confront the invading armies. He goes first to Edom, then to Jerusalem and then to Megiddo, but that is another subject that is not directly connected with the timing of the rapture. But BEFORE this gathering of troops and before Jesus actually descends to the earth, we once again are shown the INTENSE cosmic signs (v. 15) and the disturbances on the earth (v. 16). Most students of prophecy know that the Old Testament prophets leaped and jumped – back and forth, skipping over things and leaving many things in a fog of mystery. It is the New Testament that steers us clearly through that fog; from the teaching of Jesus to the apostles, culminating in the book of the Revelation. What the Scripture shows us is that the Day of the Lord contains many different things which constitute the administration of God’s wrath on the earth dwellers. But the SIGNS that tell us the Day of the Lord is here are consistently mentioned. When the people of the earth SEE the signs in the sun, moon and stars, AND experience the great disturbances on the earth, it is then that Jesus will appear in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory, and every eye will see Him. The earth dwellers will KNOW that it is now time for God’s wrath to be poured out. That wrath will come in many stages (7 trumpets and 7 bowls), but NOT all at one time. Sometimes in the Old Testament, the SIGNS are mentioned, and then ONE of the judgments is mentioned. It does not mean that THAT specific judgment will now come immediately. This is what we see occurring in the prophecies of Isaiah 13 and Joel 2-3. OTHER COSMIC DISTURBANCES Fruchtenbaum writes on page 25: “But there are other cosmic disturbances in connection with the fourth trumpet (8:12), the fifth trumpet (8:10-11), the seventh bowl (16:17-21), etc. There are several cosmic disturbances throughout the end times, not just one.” The OTHER cosmic disturbances do not even come close to being in the same category as the intensive signs in the sun, moon and stars, and the earthly disturbances – all occurring at the same time. 8:5, thunder, lightening, earthquake. 8:12, a third of the sun, moon and stars are darkened. 8:10-11, a great star fell from heaven burning like a torch. 9:2, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. 16:18-21, lightening, thunder, earthquake; huge hailstones. Yes, disturbances in the heavens and on the earth CONTINUE in varying degrees AFTER the initial signs that announce the arrival of the Day of the Lord, but they are entirely different and on a lower key than the initial ones. Fruchtenbaum wrote on page 26: “For Rosenthal’s system to stand, it is crucial to begin the Day of the Lord with Revelation 8:1 and the seventh seal. However, NOTHING in the text states that that is when the Day of the Lord begins. With Old Testament predictions about the Day of the Lord already being found in chapter six, it is best to begin the Day of the Lord in 6:1.” I have already presented the contextual flow at Revelation 6-8. There is no wrath of God until Revelation 8:1. It is announced at the 6th seal of Revelation 6. It is delayed at Revelation 7. And it begins to be poured out at Revelation 8:5. I cannot find any “Old Testament predictions about the Day of the Lord already found in chapter six,” so it is quite illogical for me to place the beginning of the Day of the Lord at Revelation 6:1. But each one needs to become fully persuaded in one’s own mind, without any emotional or peer pressure to sway them.   THE ARRIVAL OF ELIJAH As I have shown before, the Bible associates the arrival of the Day of the Lord, directly with the arrival of Jesus in the clouds of the sky and with the rapture of the church. The Pre-tribulation view - or rather, I should say, Fruchtenbaum’s view, for there is not total agreement among the pre-tribbers in the same way that there is not total agreement among the pre-wrathers. Fruchtenbaum’s view does not see that close association. He has the Day of the Lord occurring at the beginning of the seven-years of Daniel’s 70th week, and the rapture occurring some unknown time before that. The prophecy at Malachi 4:5 tells us that Elijah the prophet will come back BEFORE the Day of the Lord. There is disagreement about whether Elijah is one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11; Fruchtenbaum thinks he is not. That of course, will color how one views the chronology, for as we know, the two witnesses will testify for 1260 days and remain on the earth for an additional 3 ½ days after that (Rev. 11:1-11). SINCE the Day of the Lord BEGINS when Jesus arrives, the same “imminency” for the rapture applies also for the Day of the Lord. No one knows the day or the hour, but we can know the season. There is also disagreement as to whether the two witnesses testify during the first half or the second half of the week. Fruchtenbaum wrote on page 27: “The starting-point of the entire Tribulation, the seventieth week of Daniel, is the signing of a covenant between Israel and the Antichrist (Dan. 9:27). The Rapture comes sometime before that. In spite of Rosenthal’s insistence to the contrary, the Rapture does not have to come right before, or at the start, in Pre-Tribulationism. The Rapture is not the only thing that has to come before the seven years. There must be a cosmic disturbance; there must be the return of Elijah. Because of the imminency of the Rapture, there is no way of knowing which comes first. Believing that Elijah will come before the seven years does not destroy imminency,” So the issue here is (1) When does the Day of the Lord start? And (2) How closely does the Bible connect the rapture with the start of the Day of the Lord? Since it has been demonstrated that the Day of the Lord occurs in direct and immediate association with the return of Jesus and the rapture, then the issue is resolved. When Jesus taught the disciples about His second coming, He always had only ONE second coming in mind. At that second coming, there will be deliverance for the saints and impending judgment on the earth dwellers who remain behind. Sometimes, only the deliverance is in view, and sometimes only the judgment is in view. Fruchtenbaum wrote on page 30: “The Day of the Lord could be taken as the entire seven-year period, with the wrath of God only a portion of it. Even if Rosenthal has proven (and he has not) that the wrath begins with the seventh seal. That is not the same as proving that the Day of the Lord begins with the seventh seal. That point should be kept in mind as we proceed in discussing this ‘wrath’ chapter. To make the Day of the Lord and the wrath of God exactly the same is only a presupposition, not a clearly stated biblical fact.” I have shown the IMMEDIATE connection of the wrath with the arrival of Jesus and the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The Pre-Wrath view teaches that this event is pictured at the sixth seal of Revelation 6.   THE DAY HAS COME A large section is devoted to dealing with the sixth seal and the aorist tense at Revelation 6:17, “for the great day of their wrath has come.” Rosenthal wrote: “Since the verb IS COME in Revelation 6:17 tells of the action but not the time of the action, the context must be appealed to for that determination. When that is done, the evidence that the phrase ‘the great day of his wrath is come’ refers to an event which is about to occur is both substantial and compelling.” Furctenbaum wrote on page 30: “Rosenthal, grammatically speaking, has no more basis to take it as a future event than Pre-Tribulationalists have to take it as a past event.” But we are not talking about grammar ONLY. We are also and more importantly, talking about CONTEXT. In actuality, the aorist here is announcing an event that is NOW HERE. It is the Day of the Lord (the day of wrath) that is now here; the day when God will pour out His wrath upon the earth. The wrath is only awaiting the sealing of the 144,000. But the actual DAY OF WRATH is now here. It does not mean that they SEE the wrath of God. They don’t. They see the arrival of Jesus and they know that it is NOW the time for His (their) wrath to come. Thus, “the day of their wrath has come.” I have presented the context, and while pre-wrathers consider it compelling, each one must decide for himself. Fruchtenbaum also attempts to rely on the context. On page 31: “While grammatically the aorist tense is inconclusive for either view, context favors the past view and the Pre-Tribulational view. The context shows that while during the judgments of the first four seals humanity did not recognize it as coming from God, with the fifth [I think he means the sixth seal] seal they do recognize it as coming from God, and not just the first seal but all five seals so far.” The context shows no such thing as I have demonstrated previously. I ask, where in the context is “wrath” in view other than at the 6th seal? Fruchtenbaum wrote at page 32 after listing many places where the aorist tense occurs in Revelation: “In all these examples the word is used of a past event OR A PRESENT EVENT (caps mine). Not once is it used of a future event. Rosenthal is forced to make the Greek of 6:17 the exception to the rule.” Ah, but you see, the Pre-Wrath view does not depend on Rosenthal’s writings. We do not need to see it as a “future” event. It is not. It is a present event. I don’t like to be too repetitive, but it is necessary for emphasis. Consider again what Walvoord has written. “. . . it does seem to indicate that beginning with the sixth seal God is undertaking a direct intervention into human affairs. The judgments of war, famine, and earth, and the martyrdom of the saints have largely originated in human decision and in the evil heart of man. The judgment described here, however, originates in God as the divine punishment inflicted upon a blasphemous world.” (Revelation, page 136). And: “The events are of such a character that all are impressed with the fact that the day of the wrath of the Lord has come and their judgment IS NOW ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE.” (emphasis mine)   THE WRATH On page 34, Fruchtenbaum wrote: “Rosenthal again operates on the basis of assumptions, but also misses a very important observation as to what the WRATH refers to. The presupposition is that the WRATH of Revelation 6:16-17 is a reference to the seventh seal, when contextually it is best taken with the sixth seal, with a question-mark as to whether it also includes the first five seals. Another presupposition is that Day of the Lord wrath begins in Revelation 6:17; but that passage does not even mention the Day of the Lord, and Rosenthal only reads his theology into it.” But the signs of the sixth seal are NOT “the wrath.” They are portends to the wrath. The wrath is something very specific in the context. It is judgment on the earth, the sea and the trees, which is NOW here, but will be delayed until the 144,000 are converted. After they are converted, and after John is shown the multitude of believers in heaven, he is shown how the wrath/judgment of God will be poured out on the earth through the trumpets of chapters 8 and 9. He is shown this via the seventh seal. So, it is quite accurate to describe the wrath as coming at the seventh seal. And on page 35: “Secondly, when the wrath of God is identified by John, angels or God, it never identifies any of the seal judgments as wrath, nor even the first six trumpet judgments. As mentioned earlier, the usage of WRATH in Revelation is far more limited then [than] even Rosenthal makes it, for it is used ONLY of the bowl judgments and the seventh trumpet, which contains the seven bowl judgments.” “Every usage of wrath in Revelation is in reference to the bowl judgments. The only exception is Revelation 6:16-17 which quotes the conclusion of unbelievers; but that conclusion is not affirmed by John, angels or God. When the three latter [later] use the term wrath, it is only of the bowl judgments which Rosenthal, by a strained exegesis of Daniel 12:11, limits to the last thirty days.” However, Fruchtenbaum is just nitpicking. He next wrote: “While Scripture outside the Revelation can be used to show that the wrath is more extensive than just the bowl judgments at the very end, and this reviewer believes that all seven years are both the Day of the Lord and a time of wrath, here we are concerned as to how Revelation alone used the term.” His argument should be concerned with proving that the entire 7 years is wrath rather than making a fuss about the Pre-Wrath claim that wrath occurs after the sixth seal and includes the trumpets and bowls, which he also believes. I have previously shown that the term WRATH, does not have to occur in a passage for wrath to be involved. It is the flow of the context that shows us wrath is being poured out. There can be no doubt that judgment from God is being administered upon the earth via the trumpets. Judgment is always from God’s wrath. They go hand in hand. The order of understanding is (1) violations of God’s righteousness occur, (2) God’s perfect character is “angry” toward those violations, and (3) God’s perfect justice renders judgment. If Fruchtenbaum so easily sees “wrath” in the first 5 seals, where there is no mention of the word or even of DIRECT divine administration of those things that occur, how much easier should it be to see wrath in the 6 trumpets when it is clearly stated that those judgments come from the fire of the altar in heaven. At the sixth seal, John is shown the response of the unbelievers as they are witness to the signs in the sun, moon and stars, the massive earthquakes, and the “presence” of God; the arrival of Jesus (the Lamb) in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. Their response is, “for the great day of their wrath has come; and who is able to stand?” Fruchtenbaum wrote on page 35: “The only exception is Revelation 6:16-17 which quotes the conclusion of unbelievers; but that conclusion is not affirmed by John, angels or God.” And on page 33, “Being unbelievers, they cannot be prophesying about the seventh seal.” This is a vision that John is being shown. It is a vision filled with symbols of what will happen in the future. The events that the symbols portray will occur, but the actual symbols will not occur. No one will see a LAMB coming in the clouds of the sky, but they will see the Lord Jesus Christ coming in all the glory of His Father. The response that is stated here is ONLY for the purpose of the vision. In actuality, This verbalization will not be proclaimed by the unbelievers. The reason is because they will not see “Him who sits on the throne” or “the Lamb.” Those are terms that pertain ONLY to John’s vision of chapters 4 and 5. But IN THE VISION, John is shown something that portrays the “general” reaction of the unbelievers. SINCE they will see “The Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky in power and great glory” (Mat. 24:30), they will KNOW that it is now time for God’s judgment to come. Accordingly, they will mourn and worry about the impending judgment (Mat. 24:30; Luke 21:26; Rev. 1:7). That is what the vision portrays. Furthermore, in this vision, John would not be shown a response of the unbelievers that is inaccurate. We do not need an “affirmation” by “John, angels or God,” because the affirmation is made IN THE VISION by the nature of the 7th seal when judgment AND WRATH are portrayed by fire from the altar being thrown down upon the earth. Concerning the mention of wrath at Revelation 15:1 in connection with the bowls, it is stated that in them “the wrath of God is completed.” Judgment/wrath will be poured out via the trumpets but it will BE COMPLETED via the bowls. The implication is that wrath has been seen through the previous judgments and now it is going to be completed. There is nothing here that requires us to disassociate WRATH from the trumpets. DANIEL 12:11 Concerning the claim that Rosenthal has a “strained exegesis of Daniel 12:11, consider the following. The two witnesses of Revelation 11:1-12 are given authority for 1260 days, which extends from the midpoint of the 70th week, at the inception of the tribulation; the oppressive reign of the beast, and concludes at the end of the week, at which time they are killed by the beast, and their bodies lie in the street for 3 1/2 days. Although the week ends at this time, there still remains 30 additional days during which God will pour out the final wrath of His justice upon the earth and the beast’s kingdom. These are the first 3 1/2 days of that next 30 day period. Even though the beast is officially given only 42 months to reign, he continues to be present on the earth for the next 30 days as God takes that amount of time to bring to a just end both his influence and his physical life. Just as Paul wrote, “whom the Lord will slay with the breath (word) of his mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming,” (2 Thessalonians 2:8). This of course refers to the Day-of-the-Lord arrival of Jesus in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory, portrayed at the 6th seal, and which initiates the judgments that will be finalized at Armageddon. However, the beast is NOT SLAIN at this arrival in the clouds, but remains alive until after the battle of Armageddon which is portrayed for us at Revelation 19:11-21. Paul is not giving us a chronological factor but simply a statement of fact, that it is “the appearance of His coming” that will EVENTUALLY bring about the destruction of the man of lawlessness. These 30 additional days are mentioned at Daniel 12:11, where we learn that “from the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished, and the abomination of desolation is set up” which is the midpoint of the week, “there will be 1290 days.” Thus, the removal of the desolation in the Jewish temple will not occur until 30 days after the end of the 70th week. Armageddon occurs toward the end of that 30 day period, and it might very well be that the believing Jews in Jerusalem remove the idol image from the temple after the invading armies are all destroyed. Once again, whether something is a “strained exegesis” or not must be evaluated by each student of the Scriptures. Through page 38 of Fruchtenbaum’s treatise, it is all repetition of the same objections, and I have already answered them in the previous pages. THE OLIVET DISCOURSE of MATTHEW 24 Fruchtenbaum wrote on page 38: “According to Rosenthal, the Olivet Discourse is in chronological order (p. 150), and he parallels Luke 21:25 to the sixth seal (p. 152) which is all supposed to occur before any wrath. However, Luke 21:23 already mentions the wrath of God prior to verse 25, and therefore prior to the sixth seal. There is clear inconsistency here.” In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus orients us to the historical trends that will occur during the church age, leading up to His return at the Day of the LORD. THE EXACT CHRONOLOGY OF WHAT JESUS TAUGHT in the Olivet Discourse has not been preserved for us. Some think that Matthew 24 and Luke 21 represent two different teaching sessions. I don’t agree with this. What we have is ONE DISCOURSE. The content of that discourse is RE-TAUGHT to us through the disciples and Luke and Mark, but the precise order of the content is not preserved in the gospels. As this is studied, it is imperative to properly harmonize the three accounts that we have in the synoptic gospels. And as they unfold it will be clear that the progress is viewed from 30 AD, as an uninterrupted history of the church, until Matthew 24:29-31, when Jesus returns in association with the Day of the LORD signs and gathers His elect from the world. Jesus breaks down the historical trends into three periods. 1. Those before 70 AD. 2. Those between 70 AD and the great tribulation. 3. And those during the great tribulation. CHURCH AGE TRENDS: General trends both before and after 70 AD: Mt. 24:5, For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ, (Lk. 21:8, I am He, and, The time is at hand) and will deceive many. (do not go after them. Luke) (For the mystery of lawlessness is already working. 2 Thessalonians 2:7) Matthew 24:6 And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not disturbed, for it must happen, but it is not yet the end. (Lk. 21:9 And when you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be alarmed; for these things must happen first, but the end is not immediate.) These "wars and rumors" have been occurring since 30 AD, and are to be viewed as general trends without placing any specific significance upon them. In fact, Jesus calls them "the beginning of birth pains at verse 8. These "beginning birth pains" are those intermittent pushes and shoves which indicate that a pregnancy is moving toward its "end." However, before that "end" can occur, there must be the final birth pains which are the body's actions to bring that baby into the world and "end" the pregnancy. The "pregnancy" is God's plan to establish the Messiah's reign on the earth via His return at the Day of the Lord. The beginning birth pains are those historical trends which progress from Messiah's first advent until the revelation of the beast, the man of lawlessness at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. The final birth pains take place during the oppressive reign of the beast which is called the tribulation, the great one. The end of the "pregnancy" is when Jesus returns at the Day of the Lord and administrates divine wrath upon the world in preparation for establishing His 1000 year earthly kingdom. At verse 6, Jesus said, "the end is not yet." This clarifies that when the "wars and rumors" occur, the oriented Christian should not be deceived into thinking that it portends the end of the age. To explain why it is not yet the end, Jesus amplifies at Matthew 24:7 and Luke 21:10-11. Here, He describes trends that take place on a much larger scale than the ones just mentioned - - For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom - -. There are two things in this passage which tell us that these "larger scale" trends are those which will occur after AD 70. 1. The idea of "kingdom against kingdom" conflicts does not describe the conflicts that took place within the Roman Empire prior to 70 AD. 2. At Luke 21:12, the phrase, "but before all these things."   Here Jesus backs up in His discourse in order to describe the events leading up to and culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. By saying, "before all these things," Jesus is placing the following information before the "larger scale" trends just described. And so, chronologically, these events should be viewed first. As we approach this study, a very important point needs to be recognized in order to properly correlate the language Jesus uses as He tells of the events that will take place. Jesus taught about two different times of persecution and two different times of crisis for Jerusalem. He uses similarity of language to describe both, and we must be careful to make the separation between the two situations or else we will miss the true intent of His teaching. When Jesus talks about the persecution between 30-70 AD, he uses language that is very similar to what He uses to describe the persecution of the great tribulation. But by careful analysis, the distinction between the two periods can be preserved. The same principle applies to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the oppression by the beast in the great tribulation. Thus, when we get to Luke 21:20-24, Jesus is talking about 70 AD, and the destruction of the Jewish temple and the city of Jerusalem. It is national discipline upon them because of their rejection of Jesus as the promised Messiah (Mat. 21:33-44; Luke 19:41-44). So, yes, of course it is called “wrath to this people.” It is the judgment of God that has scattered the Jews world-wide since 70 AD. But at verse 25, LUKE moves BEYOND what Jesus taught about 70 AD and looks to the end-times when after “the tribulation of those days,” Jesus will return. Accordingly, I view Fruchtenbaum’s attack at this point quite inaccurate. THE SEVEN YEARS Fruchtenbaum wrote on page 39: “As Rosenthal himself believes, it is the Abomination of Desolation that marks the middle of the seven years. This involves the Gentile takeover of the temple Compound. That takeover is described in Revelation 11:1-2. The second half in Revelation begins only in chapter eleven, and Revelation chapters 11-14 describe mid-tribulational events, concluding with the bowl judgments (Rev. 15-16) in the second half. But because the middle point begins only with Revelation 11:1, this puts not only the first four seals but all of the seal judgments and the first six trumpets into the first half.” This is simply a difference of interpretation concerning the progress of events in The Revelation. Not everyone in either “rapture camp” agrees. But to answer Fruchtenbaum’s paragraph, the Pre-Wrath view believes that the 6 seals take John from the beginning of the 70th week, beyond the midpoint of the week, and to a point SOMEWHERE between the midpoint and the end of the week, when the 6th seal occurs. The Pre-Wrath view sees the events of seals 2-5 as the great tribulation; the oppression of the beast, which begins at the midpoint of the week. Even Walvoord recognizes that chapter 6 encompasses the great tribulation when he wrote, “In some sense chapter 6 is the outline of the important facts of the period of great tribulation, and the rest of the events of the book of Revelation are comprehended in the seventh seal introduced in chapter 8.” (The Revelation of Jesus Christ, page 138). Of course the issue here is to determine the LENGTH of the great tribulation, which has been discussed earlier. So, the Pre-Wrath view sees the events of the first 5 seals as representing the rise and oppression of the beast. It is then AFTER the 6th seal “cuts short” the tribulation, that the judgment of God begins to be poured out upon the earth. Chapters 8-10 occur AFTER the 6th seal. Chapters 11-14 “back-track” and amplify events beginning from the midpoint of the week and progress to various points beyond the midpoint. Chapter 11:14-19 announces the end of the week with the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Chapters 15-16, picks up with that 7th trumpet and the pouring out of the 7 bowls during the 30 day period that follows the 70th week. Chapters 17-18 “back-track” again to the midpoint of the week, giving us knowledge that even predates the midpoint. It should be obvious that one’s interpretation of the chronological flow of The Revelation is of utmost importance, but the most crucial issue is still – what is it that happens at the 6th seal. Fruchtenbaum continues with his objections on page 40: “The third assumption is that the fifth seal saints are martyred because they would not bow to the Antichrist. But again, there is noting in the context of the fifth seal to indicate this. To be sure, they are martyred for their faith. But it does not say that it was specifically for refusing to bow down to the Antichrist.” The pre-wrathers and many of the pre-tribbers believe that the seals occur during the great tribulation. In that context, the martyrs of the fifth seal are OF COURSE directly associated with death at the hands of the beast. Fruchtenbaum thinks that “the great harlot” persecutes Christians during the first half of the week. He wrote on page 40: “The harlot is destroyed in the middle of the seven years, and then the Antichrist rules for the second half. This also means that the world religious rule of the harlot must be during the first half of the seven years. . . Not only does the Antichrist persecute believers (during the second half), this religious system of the harlot also persecutes the saints (17:6); so this persecution must be during the first half, which is when the fifth seal saints are martyred.” Revelation 17:6, “And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus.” It is commonly believed that this verse is a summary of the PAST historical practices of the great harlot. That is, past from the standpoint of END TIMES, but future from the time of John. Thus, in describing the NATURE of this evil religious system, John is shown that it is responsible for the death of the saints ALL THROUGHOUT its history; even, for that matter, embracing its history prior to John’s vision. Walvoord wrote on pages 248-49, “The woman is pictured not only as the source of all evil in apostate Christendom but also as the one who is actively engaged in the persecution of the true saints. Here the primary reference is not to ancient Babylon but to Babylon perpetuated in apostate Christendom especially in its future form. The history of the church has demonstrated that apostate Christendom is unsparing in its persecution of those who attempt to maintain a true faith in Jesus Christ. What has been true in the past will be brought to its ultimate in this future time when the martyrs will be beyond number from every kindred, tongue, and nation.” So Fruchtenbaum is not only disagreeing with Rosenthal, but also with Walvoord, and that basically indicates that much of what Fruchtenbaum opposes does not really undermine the Pre-Wrath position. Rosenthal, and many Pre-Wrathers use the “silence” of Zephaniah 1:7 as a direct parallel to the silence in Revelation 8:1. I myself, do not believe there is a connection, and Fruchtenbaum rightly criticizes the connection on page 41. It is not germane to the validity of Pre-Wrath. Concerning the issue of which Old Testament passages should be viewed as DAY OF THE LORD texts, agreement or disagreement is not germane to one’s rapture position so I won’t address it. 2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-8 On page 42, Frutenbaum offers more objections to the Pre-Wrath claim that there is no divine wrath in the seals. Rosenthal claims that there is no wrath because angels are not involved, but become involved after the 6th seal. Fruchtenbaum claims that the presence or absence of angels does not determine the presence of absence of divine wrath, and I agree with that. However, then he makes a statement about 2 Thes. 1:7-8 that is a clear misstatement of the facts. He wrote: “The citing of II Thessalonians 1:7-8 proves nothing, as it is speaking of the second coming when He comes with His angels.” The primary factor with the Pre-Wrath position is that there is only ONE second coming of Christ, and it occurs visibly and with power and great glory. The descent of Jesus to the earth, which is portrayed at Revelation 19 is an event that is subsequent to the arrival of Jesus in the clouds of the sky. Now Fruchtenbaum’s statement that 2Thes. 1 refers to the second advent is in fact correct. However, HE thinks it refers to the descent of Jesus at Revelation 19 in connection with the Armageddon campaign. In actuality, this passage sees THE CHURCH being given relief from affliction (The verb, thlibo in the Greek – tribulation) “WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.” This passage is SO clear in the simple English that I do not understand how I could have missed it for the many years that I was taught and taught the pre-trib rapture position. What Paul is teaching the believers in this letter is that there is a possibility that the affliction they are going through COULD escalate into the affliction about which Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24; the great tribulation. IF that happens, then THEY – the believers in view AND the apostle Paul as well, will be given relief; that is, they will be delivered from that tribulation, at the visible arrival of Jesus in the clouds of the sky with His angels in flaming fire. This is the rapture of the church. And after that rapture, Jesus will administrate affliction (judgment/wrath) upon the unbelievers who remain on the earth, who ultimately will be cast into the lake of fire, “away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.” THE SEALING OF THE 144,000 Fruchtenbaum wrote on page 43: “As to the issue of the timing of the Rapture, Rosenthal insists that the 144,000 must be sealed before God can pour out His wrath. Since the wrath of God begins with the seventh seal, the 144,000 are sealed between the sixth and seventh seals. One cannot be sure exactly how this relates to the timing of the Rapture. If the Rapture takes place with the seventh seal - and if the 144,000 are sealed between the sixth and seventh seals - then the 144,000 would leave the earth in the Rapture. But Rosenthal has them on earth throughout the wrath of God, for they are ‘sealed for protection from that wrath.’ This is just one of several inconsistencies and contradictions.” For clarification, the rapture ACTUALLY occurs DURING the 6th seal AT the arrival of Jesus in the clouds of the sky. The unbelievers who see the signs in the sun, moon and stars, and who witness the massive earthquakes at the same time, will also see the “sign of the Son of Man” and “the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory” (Mat. 24:29-30). It is at this time that the rapture occurs, which Jesus taught at Mat. 24:31. I have already shown that the rapture occurs immediately as the Son of Man arrives. There are then TWO results after Jesus arrives. (1) there is the conversion of 144,000 Jews, and (2) there is seen in heaven a great multitude who came out of the great tribulation, which is the gathering of the elect of Matthew 24:31 and 1Thes. 4:14-17. It is the WRATH/judgment of God that is seen to be administered at the 7th seal, not the rapture. The order is perfectly consistent with the rest of Scripture. Fruchtenbaum continued: “Further, Rosenthal states: ‘And whether they are regenerated (saved) at the time of their sealing . . . or sealed for physical protection and later regenerated . . . is a matter of speculation. What is abundantly clear, and was obviously important to the angel, is the fact that 144,000 Jews must be sealed because the Day of the Lord wrath begins.’ Let it first be noted that Rosenthal works on the assumption that the wrath of God begins only with the seventh seal, and that is based on the testimony of unregenerated men. Again, when it is God Himself who identifies wrath in Revelation, it is only of the bowl judgments contained in the seventh trumpet.” There is a lot of repetition in this review, and that requires a similar degree of repetition in reply. I have shown why it is that God’s judgment and wrath are the same thing and why IT begins at the 7th seal. The word WRATH does not need to be mentioned for it to be involved. The mention of WRATH with the bowl judgments is clearly stated to be “the LAST because in them the wrath of God is completed” (Rev. 15:1). Frutenbaum: “Secondly, the question as to just when are the 144,000 saved is brushed off by Rosenthal as not being a key issue. But it is an important key issue. Related passages on sealing show that it is a work of the Holy Spirit which takes place at salvation (II Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30). If this sealing takes place between the sixth and seventh seals, and if the Rapture takes place with the seventh seal, then the 144,000 would be raptured and not left behind. Thus, he must innovate a theory that the 144,000 are sealed before the Rapture but saved afterwards. This is simply not the way sealing by God is defined by Scripture itself.” I am in agreement that the sealing of the 144,000 constitutes salvation, and that the seal is in fact, the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of those converted. Rosenthal’s uncertainty here is really not an issue. Within the context of my ORDER OF EVENTS, there is no inconsistency. The rapture occurs in connection with the 6th seal, the 144,000 are converted/sealed after that, and then with the 7th seal, the judgment/wrath of God begins. I must make a further point concerning this sealing. Most pre-tribbers believe that the Holy Spirit is removed at the rapture, but Fruchtenbaum does not think that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer and is able to correctly recognize that the sealing of the 144,000 is the same sealing that occurs for believers before the rapture. My point is to simply show that there is much inconsistency among pre-tribbers and that makes it a bit difficult to provide a definitive representation of the pre-trib position. The Pre-Wrath position has a similar problem but it is not as pronounced as it is with pre-trib. Fruchtenbaum: “Thirdly, Rosenthal states that the 144,000 are sealed for protection from the wrath of God. The simple truth is that all believers are exempt from the wrath of God (John 3:36; Romans 5:9). The 144,000 are not just protected from the wrath of God; they are protected from being harmed by the Tribulation judgments which include the demonic invasion of Revelation 9:4. That is not true of other believers who do suffer martyrdom and death in the Tribulation (Revelation 13:3). Again, all believers are exempt from the wrath of God.” Yes, all believers are exempt from the wrath of God in the context of John 3:36 and Romans 5:9. That is, all are exempt from ETERNAL wrath and judgment. AND, the believers alive on the earth during the trumpets and bowls are also protected from the judgments of God’s wrath that come from those events. The point of sealing the 144,000 is to make this very fact, clear. And all who are converted after the 144,000 are likewise sealed with the Holy Spirit and protected from the JUDGMENTS, but not necessarily protected from martyrdom. In addition, I need to refute the use of the term, “tribulation judgments” as a reference to what comes after the 6th seal. The tribulation (the effectual oppression of the beast – not his reign) will have ended when Jesus arrives in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. This is portrayed at the 6th seal and taught by Jesus at Matthew 24:29-31. The events portrayed by the trumpets and bowls FOLLOW the 6th seal; follow the arrival of Jesus. The next issue is the nature of the judgments of God as portrayed by the six trumpets. The Pre-Wrath view believes that the judgment on “the earth, sea, and trees” of Revelation 7:1-3 is a different quality of HARM than what has been experienced before at the hands of man. The things that happen in seals 2-4 will certainly do SOME damage to the earth, but it is also clearly distinguished from the damage that will result from the trumpet judgments. The Pre-Trib view rejects this distinction, and as pointed out before, Fruchtenbaum wants to make the trumpet judgments retroactive to amplify the seals and to equate them with the seals. Since the Pre-Wrath view depends on the chronological interpretation of chapters 6-9, it is necessary to discuss Fruchtenbaum’s criticism. He wrote on page 44: “Again, it is not clear from Rosenthal's arguments just how they relate to the timing of the Rapture. It appears to be in the statement that the angels cannot hurt the earth, sea, or any tree until the 144,000 are sealed, which are only hurt by the wrath of God with the seventh seal and not by the first five seals. So what? All this could be true even with the Rapture before the seven years. The reviewer fails to see the logic in Rosenthal's argument here. Whether the 144,000 are sealed before the first seal or after the fifth seal says nothing about the timing of the Rapture, for Rosenthal, like Pre-Tribulationists, leaves them on the earth; and they are here after the Rapture of the seventh seal (very inconsistent for Rosenthal, as they are sealed before the seventh seal, but consistent with the Pre-Tribulational view).” According to the Pre-Wrath view, it is necessary that the arrival of Jesus in the clouds of sky and the gathering of the saints prophesied at Matthew 24, occur at the sixth seal. Therefore WHEN the 144,000 are sealed IS directly related to the timing of the rapture. Since the sealing constitutes their salvation, it must occur after the rapture or else they would be included in the rapture. Now to be accurate, not all Pre-Wrathers believe that the sealing of the 144,000 constitutes their salvation, so that makes it somewhat difficult to provide a definitive answer in some of these areas. But for those who see the sealing AS their salvation, then that sealing must occur after the rapture and therefore after the 6th seal, just as the chronology of Revelation 6 and 7 relates. Fruchtenbaum continues: “Rosenthal also insists that one cannot make chapter seven retroactive to chapter six. The reason: ‘it is not the seals which hurt the earth, sea, and trees, but the trumpet judgments which follow.’ Three things should be noted here. Whether or not chapter seven is retroactive to chapter six is not relevant to the issue of the timing of the Rapture, and one could hold to either view and believe in Pre-Tribulationism.” Once again, it is relevant because the rapture will occur in connection with the 6th seal, and the judgment/wrath that is anticipated there is described as being delayed in chapter 7 and coming in chapter 8. There is no logic in the retroactive view. Fruchtenbaum: “Secondly, the presupposition in Rosenthal's argument is that because the angels are instructed not to hurt the earth, sea and trees, this means then that no harm could have come to them before this event. However, the earth, sea and trees could have been hurt by the previous judgments, and then the instructions to the angels only mean to do no further harm until the 144,000 are sealed.” It does not say “further harm” in chapter 7, but it is clearly referring to something NEW and DIFFERENT, and something that is in direct connection with the wrath that is anticipated by the unbelievers as a result of the events of the 6th seal. I agree that the presence of HURT before the 7th seal has nothing to do with the mention of the angels. I agree that there will certainly be HURT during the events of the seals, but such is clearly DIFFERENT from the hurt that is anticipated at the 6th seal, delayed at chapter 7, and poured out in chapter 8. Fruchtenbaum: “The Book of Revelation itself indicates that this is the best view, for the very same instructions are given to the demons in 9:7(4), which is the fifth trumpet; and by then, the land, sea and trees have been hurt by the first four trumpets. Although this hurt is done by demons, it is part of the fifth trumpet and Rosenthal sees all the trumpets as being part of the wrath of God.” I don’t see how Revelation 9:4 INDICATES that wrath and judgment will occur during the seals. They are totally unrelated. The instruction given to the demons of Revelation 9:1-11 is not the same as what is found at Revelation 7. At Revelation 7, the harm is upon the environment, and is simply delayed. At Revelation 9, the harm is on people ONLY, because the nature of the judgment has nothing to do with the environment. Fruchtenbaum: “Thirdly, is it true that ‘it is not the seals which hurt the earth, sea, and trees. . .’? The first, second and fourth seals all mention war. Is it possible to have war without the earth being hurt? The third and fourth seals both mention famine. Is it possible to have a famine without food and all vegetation, in fact, not being hurt? Certainly famine includes scarcity of food, including sea-food. So, is not the sea hurt? What about the sixth seal? This is the ‘cosmic disturbance’ which Rosenthal himself ascribes to God. Is it possible that these cosmic cataclysms will not hurt the earth, sea and trees? The great earthquake of 6:12 would obviously affect both the land and the sea. The cosmic convulsions in the sun, moon and stars (6:12-13) would obviously affect the trees. If ‘every mountain and island is moved out of their places’ (6:14), the land and sea are obviously affected and the trees could hardly escape being hurt.” Of course there is harm to the earth during the events of the seals. But it is DIFFERENT from the harm that is anticipated as coming after the 6th seal and that is delayed in chapter 7. Whether one wants to ascribe this HURT to God directly is not REALLY a problem. The chronological flow of the context clearly indicates that the HURT that is to come after the 6th seal is DIFFERENT. Why it is different and how it is different must be determined by the context. The logical understanding is that at the 6th seal, there is an expectation of NEW judgment/wrath that has not previously been experienced. That NEW judgment is delayed until the 144,000 are sealed/converted, and then administered via the events portrayed by the 7 trumpets. Fruchtenbaum: “Rosenthal's way out of this dilemma is again to distinguish between the acts of man and the acts of God. But the sixth seal is an act of God, not man. The only way out for Rosenthal is to make chapter seven retroactive to the sixth seal of chapter six. If, however, it is possible to make chapter seven retroactive to the sixth seal, it is also possible to make it retroactive to the first seal.” The Pre-Wrath view does not make the 7th seal retroactive to the 6th seal. It FOLLOWS the 6th seal and contains the trumpet judgments; fire from the altar in heaven, which is what is EXPECTED by those who witness the 6th seal. The 6th seal constitutes all the things described at Matthew 24:29-31, from the signs in heaven, to the arrival of Jesus, to the gathering out/rapture of the saints. THE GREAT MULTITUDE IN HEAVEN The Pre-Wrath view believes that the great multitude that John sees in heaven at Revelation 7:9ff represents the raptured saints and is a different group from the martyrs mentioned at the 5th seal. Although “we” still do not have agreement among ourselves as to the chronology, it is far more logical to see the RAPTURE event portrayed here than at Revelation 4:1, where John is “spiritually” transported to heaven. Rosenthal and others see the sealing of the 144,000 as occurring FIRST, and then the rapture as occurring SECOND. There is division at this point. My view is that there are TWO things portrayed in Revelation chapter 7 that result from the 6th seal; the return of Jesus in the clouds of the sky in power and great glory. At the 6th seal-return of Jesus, the rapture occurs, which removes all believers from the earth and gathers them to meet the Lord in the air. This is accomplished by the angels (the THEY of Matthew 24:31) who gather the elect/saints “from the four winds; from the farthest end of the earth, to the farthest end of heaven” (Mark 13:27). They are then taken to heaven (probably by the same angels) where they wait for Jesus to conclude his judgments on the earth. It is not stated as occurring with the 6th seal, but we know that since Jesus ARRIVES at the 6th seal, the rapture also occurs at that time. This of course requires that one view the 6th seal as the fulfillment of Joel 2:21 and Matthew 24:29-31. Actually, the rapture event is not portrayed ANYWHERE in the book of the Revelation. What we DO SEE is EVIDENCE that the rapture has occurred (Rev. 7:9ff and 15:2-4). Many of my Pre-wrath brethren see the rapture event actually portrayed at Revelation 7:9ff, but John does not SEE the rapture occurring and does not SEE believers arriving in heaven; he sees them ALREADY THERE after being shown that there must be a delay in pouring out judgment until the 144,000 are sealed/converted. Accordingly, after John is shown the arrival of the Lord at the 6th seal (“hide us from the PRESENCE/face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb”), he is shown two things that RESULT from that return: (1) he is shown the conversion of 144,000 Jews ON THE EARTH, vs. 7:1-8, and (2) he is shown the body of believers that were removed from the earth via the rapture, vs. 7:9ff. He is shown them ALREADY there because they were removed from the earth AT the 6th seal return of Jesus. The ORDER of the two results does not give the chronology, just the focus that John is shown in the vision. Since John is not shown the ARRIVAL of the great multitude, but simply the presence and fact of their arrival, there is no chronological issue here. (The reason that they are identified as coming out of the great tribulation is because it is the RESCUE of the LIVING believers that is EMPHASIZED. The body actually includes ALL BELIEVERS. This is the exact same emphasis that is seen at 2Thes. 1:7, where the focus is on the LIVING believers who are given relief when Jesus returns. But of course, at that time, ALL BELIEVERS are raptured.) Fruchtenbaum wrote on pages 46-49: “For Rosenthal, this great multitude is the church; and if this could be substantiated, he has proved his point. In fact, within the Book of Revelation, this would be the only place where the Church is seen in heaven, following Rosenthal's short Great Tribulation, which these saints have ‘come out from.’ If it can be clearly shown that these are Church saints, his point is largely proven. If not, then Rosenthal has lost his best evidence.” Certainly there is no PROOF without a direct statement. However with a comparison to 2Thes. 1:7 we can see the exact same scenario. That scenario is, as described above, the deliverance of LIVING church age believers from tribulation AT the visible, physical and glorious return of Jesus. Fruchtenbaum: “Rosenthal begins by trying to make a sharp distinction between the fifth seal saints and the great multitude. Such a distinction is crucial to his view; thus, he argues against the Pre-Tribulationists who view the great multitude as martyrs, though this factor alone is not crucial to Pre-Tribulationism as Rosenthal implies. Rosenthal points out that the text does not actually say that they are martyrs, and this is true. But has Rosenthal proven that they are not martyrs? And has he proven that the fifth seal saints and the great multitude are two totally and exclusively different groups? As Rosenthal claims: ‘This great multitude in chapter 7 is clearly a different group from those described in chapter 6.’ But are they exclusively different? Are the contrasts really ‘significant’? “ According to Matthew 24:29-31 and 2Thes 1:7, there WILL BE a gathering of living church age believers out from the earth, at the end of the great tribulation. The martyrs of the 5th seal are ALREADY in heaven at the time that the 6th seal occurs. They have been killed throughout the church age and want to know when the judgment on the earth dwellers will begin. They are told that there will still be some more martyrs, and then judgment will come. During the tribulation there will be many more believers killed for their faith. These will go to heaven upon death and join the 5th-seal martyrs. Then at the Father’s own perfect time (1 Tim. 6:15), Jesus will come in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He will bring with Him, the souls of those who have died in order to be joined with their bodies and to meet all the living believers in the sky (1Thes. 4:13-16). After the 144,000 are saved/sealed, Jesus will pour out judgment upon the earth via the trumpets and bowls. Then the prayers of the martyrs will be answered as is indicated at Revelation 8:4. Fruchtenbaum: “Actually, the evidence implies that they do belong to the same body of saints, with those of chapter seven being an extension of those in chapter six. First, both groups are dressed the same - in white robes (Rev. 6:11; 7:9, 13-14).” Actually, they do belong to the same body of saints – the church. But it is the church – raptured – that is seen at Rev. 7:9ff. There has been no evidence provided to show that the 5th seal martyrs are anyone other than those who have died throughout the church age, which includes the time of the tribulation. Thus, the 5th seal martyrs are those who have died “to date” from the perspective of John. The ones who are to be martyred in the future are those who are slain from the time of John until the return of the Lord. AT THAT TIME, God’s timing will bring relief to all living believers and BEGIN operation vengeance just as is taught at 2Thes. 1:7-8. Fruchtenbaum: “Secondly, the fifth seal saints cry out to God to avenge their martyrdom (6:10); but they are told they must wait ‘until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course’ (6:11). Clearly, other saints were to be martyred following those of the fifth seal. So, where are there other saints in the Book of Revelation? Within the context of Revelation, the great multitude of chapter seven fulfills the prophecy of 6:11.” The other saints in the Book of Revelation are found at 12:17 and 13:7. Pre-trib assumes that the 5th seal martyrs are FROM the tribulation because they wrongly place the rapture at Rev. 4:1. Pre-wrath also sees these martyrs as FROM the tribulation because they see the tribulation beginning with the first or second seal. However, Pre-trib has a problem because they cannot have a rapture after the tribulation has begun, so they must make the saints of Revelation 7:9ff martyrs. Pre-wrath has no problem because there will be additional martyrs before the Lord returns at the 6th seal to fulfill the promise/prophecy of verse 6:11. For me, it does not matter if one views the 5th seal martyrs as FROM the tribulation or, as I believe, those who had died by the time of John’s vision. In either case, there will STILL be more to be killed before the Lord returns. It should be clear that the promise to carry out revenge will be fulfilled through the trumpet and bowl judgments, which will be initiated when the Lord returns at the 6th seal. And then to have the large body of saints in heaven following the Lord’s return is perfectly consistent with Matthew 24:31, 40-41; John 14:1-3; 1Thes. 4:14-17; and 2Thes. 1:7-8. The church will have been removed from the earth and judgment/revenge will now be delivered upon “the earth dwellers.” Fruchtenbaum: Thirdly, that these cannot be Church saints in general is seen by the fact that these saints suffered deprivation of food and shelter (7:16), which will be true of Tribulation saints in general but not of Church saints in general, as Church history clearly shows. So, exegetically, it is more fitting to make the "great multitude" a continuation of the persecuted saints of the fifth seal, for such a continued martyrdom was promised in 6:11 and fulfilled by 7:9-17.” I previously answered this by pointing out that the EMPHASIS is on those who will be PHYSICALLY delivered from the tribulation, but will include ALL believers. Again, this is the very same emphasis that is seen at 2Thes. 1:7-8, where the Lord is seen to return and give relief to those who are in tribulation (affliction). And yet, ALL BELIEVERS will be raptured at that time. His statement that “deprivation of food and shelter . . . is not true of church saints in general, as Church history clearly shows,” is questionable. Certainly not ALL church saints have undergone such suffering, but the GENERAL idea of tribulations (plural) coming upon the church was taught by Paul at Acts 14:22, “through many tribulations we are to enter the Kingdom of God.” And by Jesus at John 16:33, “in the world you have tribulation.” Fruchtenbaum: “Rosenthal then makes the point that John does not recognize who the great multitude is. The argument works against Rosenthal here rather than for him. If these are Church saints, how can it be that John, himself a Church saint, an Apostle and one of the foundation-stones of the Church, did not recognize the Church? If these are Church saints, he would have recognized them. If these are Tribulation saints, however, it is easy to see how he would not recognize them.” John is being shown a vision of many different things. He does NOT KNOW what they are until they are explained to him. Obviously he does not KNOW that the great multitude is the church. In fact, there is no direct attempt to identify the church in heaven ANYWHERE in the book of Revelation. And that includes Revelation 4:1. The identification of the great multitude must depend on other factors, and everyone must evaluate the issues for themselves. So this factor is really not an issue at all for either view. Fruchtenbaum: “The shallowness continues: Rosenthal states that the host of different groups coming to greet the great multitude ‘does not include the Church, which is conspicuous by its absence.’” This is not an issue either. This is a vision; a MOVIE if you please. At the time of the vision, John is shown what is in heaven; angels, 24 elders, 4 living creatures, the Lamb and God on the throne. The elders are also watching this MOVIE and make comments throughout. This is such a case. John and the elders talk about the great multitude that is seen in the movie. Whether the 24 elders represent the church or not is another issue, but if they do, that does not mean that the great multitude IN THE VISON, cannot be the church. Fruchtenbaum: “Rosenthal then insists several times that the great multitude is the Church raptured into heaven. He says the great multitude ‘suddenly appears in heaven.’ However, nothing in the texts indicates a ‘sudden’ appearance. Their appearance in heaven is no more sudden than the fifth seal saints; and John uses the same wording for both: ‘. . . I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain’ (6:9); and: ‘. . . I saw, and behold, a great multitude. . .’ (7:9). In each case, John was merely shown a group of saints in heaven without saying anything about their arrival, either suddenly or gradually.” The SUDDENNESS of their appearance is not an issue. The passage establishes the FACT of their presence. Rosenthal does not need to stress a “sudden appearance,” because all the passage tells us is that at one point there is no one on the sea of glass (Rev. 4:6) and at another point there is a great multitude on the sea of glass. After John is shown the 144,000 on the earth, he is then shown a scene in heaven where there is a group of people all gathered on the sea of glass before the throne of God. He does not see them arriving. They are already there. The context indicates a COMPLETE arrival and not a gradual one. Fruchtenbaum: “Furthermore, 7:14 uses the Greek present tense, which carries the concept of ‘continually coming’ out of the Great Tribulation, and not suddenly coming; they do not go up as one single group but as they are martyred, one by one. Rosenthal wants it to be sudden, because this is the Rapture for him. But all of his assertions in the above quotation that the great multitude is the Church are based on presupposing his position to be already true.” The present tense is in the PARTICIPLE form and does not indicate any “continually coming” idea. It is simply DESCRIBING them; stating something that characterizes them. These are ones who come out. Basic Greek teaches us that the participle finds its KIND OF ACTION from the context. That context is established by what the elder asks. He asks, “from where have they come?” The Greek form here is an aorist indicative. It indicates a COMPLETE arrival. He does not ask, “from where are they coming?” That’s because what is seen is a COMPLETED FACT. John and the elder both see a complete group, standing, clothed and holding branches. Fruchtenbaum: “Another point is ignored by Rosenthal: If this great multitude is the Church, then of necessity, this is only a partial-Rapture - something Rosenthal himself does not espouse. Verses 13-17 state that these saints came out of the Great Tribulation. This would exclude all Church saints who have died since Acts two, or who will die before his Great Tribulation. This clearly shows that the great multitude simply cannot be the Church, the whole Body of Christ. Rosenthal simply ignores such details in the text.” I have already answered this objection by referring to 2Thes. 1:7-8 which clearly shows the deliverance of living church age believers from tribulation at the time that Jesus retu